“Loitering” aka “standing while young”
Let’s be fair, here. You can also get done for “standing while homeless,” and “standing while poorly dressed,” and also “standing while black and/or Hispanic.”
Curiously enough, you’ll never get nicked for loitering if you appear to be doing something vaguely socially acceptable. I suggest showing up with an easel and paints; you can hang around all day without anyone bothering you.
Is this another stupid American thing? I’ve never heard anyone getting in trouble for just laying around on public property
There’s plenty of places by me where you can do this, and I live in the most dense state in America.
You hear about mainly in front of stores and malls in general. Your milage will vary depending on how dark, young or poor you look.
When you say dense… what is it we’re… talking about?.. 😏
Credit where it’s due!
most places aren’t illegal for you to simply stand around in.
you are probably thinking of the “land of the free”
Yes from what I’ve seen here in the “land of the free,” people get suspicious & uncomfortable at anyone who isn’t actively rushing around with a purpose or purchasing goods & services from establishments. Can’t just stand around or lay down or even sit, there are no benches anywhere.
Except in Italy, nearly the totality of the coast is privately handled and you must pay to access it…
It’s like that all up the US Pacific and Atlantic and the US has a lot of coast.
The gulf is for the poors to play in the oil every now and then as a treat.
California does not have private beaches. Nor do a lot of states.
Tell that to California property owners near beaches.
Most places in the US define anything below the average high tide line as public. You can own the dry sand above, but if it is wet it is public. Unfortunately there are exceptions.
In Finland we have “Everyman’s Right” which is the right to access nature on private land without needing the owner’s permission.
You can walk, hike, cycle, swim, pick berries/mushrooms, and camp temporarily, as long as you stay away from homes, gardens, and cultivated fields. Making a fire is however not allowed without permission.
“Everyman’s Right”
As a side note fact they changed it to “everyone’s rights” (jokamiehenoikeudet -> jokaisenoikeudet) recently
Allemannsretten lenge leve
Yes I’ve heard of that and I’m happy for you all over there.
But are you allowed to just lay around doing nothing in a public space?
Whatever the case, laying around doing nothing in public is pretty much illegal in the United states. It’s considered loitering, which is a crime. Except for on beaches.
It’s much more nuanced than that. What is illegal is:
- Loitering with intent to commit a crime (e.g., drug dealing, prostitution, harassment)
- Blocking sidewalks or entrances
- Loitering in certain restricted areas (schools, government buildings, etc.)
Simply just hanging out in public is perfectly legal.
My friend was thinking about buying a house in one of the suburban neighborhoods, and once went there to walk around and see if he likes it (as if he could distinguish one suburban neighborhood from another). He had cops called on him, and they threatened to cite him for loitering. For walking on public sidewalks.
Can you clarify: your friend isn’t white and took a walk in some known for being ultra white pieces of shit neighborhood (he never knew about it, because what for, in healthy person’s mind) and some dudes or gals saw him out of the windows of their caves and took preventive measures against… dreadful sidewalking crime? And cops were [n]ice scum and they were ultra chinazi kkk? 0 sarcasm here unfortunately btw Just curious about em details
The fun part is, he’s white af, not American by birth, but white. Nobody told him why he was harassed, cops just told him that loitering is a crime, asked him where he lives and where his car is, and checked that he actually drives away.
This is very exemplarily story. It shows us that race or any other differences between people never were the real problems. Problems are psychopathic schizophrenics with dementia who think they’re irreplaceable wise rulers of everything.
Wishing all the best to you and your friend.
This is a single anecdote, it doesn’t show anything. Statistically, this happens to people of colour way more than white people, so the racism is also a big problem.
Technically true, but iny entire life, I’ve never known anyone who’s gotten a ticket for loitering.
Loitering is one of those "catch all’ laws, that cops can pull out in almost any situation if they want to escalate. If they want to give you a hard time for running your mouth, they can always hit you for Loitering or Resisting Arrest.
Well yeah, even here in the UK the police or anyone won’t bother if you’re just sitting somewhere in public and not causing a breach of the peace… I mean when the sun eventually comes out, you’ll see people laid out on every available bit of green space to soak it up.
Your legal system seems very… antisocial?
I loved summer in the UK. It was a very nice week-end. Cheers
Don’t lump the entire country in with wherever you are, because I can go to plenty of places within walking distance of my home – in the United States – and just hang out, hard, and it’s fine.
In Norway anywhere in nature 100 meters from houses is free reign. Just leave it as you found it.
Define “doing nothing”'. I’m actually working on my PhD as we speak. Standing around is part of my process
Few places nowadays is it legal to lay around & do whatever you want outdoors, usually getting cited for loitering or something.
What kind of shitty place are you living in?
I always find it funny to figure out that stuffblike loitering isn’t something the Simpson invented. It’s something americans are not allowed to. But freedom is very important to them
Loitering laws are mostly just racism.
It’s rich people not wanting “riff raff” hanging around. No one cares if you’re hanging around slums and ghettos.
That’s where you’re wrong. Police love loitering laws there too. Easy excuse to harass people and search them
Every day I learn more about how that country is a shithole
But they have guns! Muh freedumb!
The US is a shithole
I once went to a park sat on a bench and right in front of me was a no loitering sign. It’s a park, what else am I going to do?
Most of those “no loitering” signs only exist to give the police a legal crowbar against homeless people. Realistically if you’re just sitting and minding your business nobody will actually come along and eject you.
sitting while black has entered the chat
Technically a misdemeanor, like being black on a friday night.
Gonna jinx it eh
I once went to a park sat on a bench and right in front of me was a no loitering sign. It’s a park, what else am I going to do?
That is hilarious (well, sad actually, but you get what I mean). Also kind of reminds of that one politician once saying that “breast are not suitable for small children” in the public breastfeeding debate …
I immediately thought of homeless people when I read this. I mean I could probably lollygag a lot of places but if you look a certain way, have long hair, dirty clothes, a few bags with you, you start attracting the wrong kind of attention fast. Often in the nicest places of all. Shittier places leave you alone.
The US . if youre not white good luck even walking around. Youll get called in. And I’m not even in the deep south.
In some places the nice beaches have been privatised by local hotels or clubs so you gotta pay them to sit on the beach or go sit somewhere less nice. Coming from Western Australia where we have the nicest beaches in the world (all free), I take this concept of “owning beach space” as a personal affront.
They don’t even have to be privatized. Some municipalities in the US require a “beach tag”. I lived on a barrier island growing up, and we had to buy ours every year, or go to the beach two towns over where it was free (…except where it was privatized).
looking at you greece ಠ_ಠ
but seriously… it’s hard to eek out an existence in sydney… everything is so fucking expensive.
but peddle to the beach and read a book, it’s free and the best thing in town.
personal affront
as opposed to personal beach front
Not in California
TIL that “loitering” does not mean leaving garbage in public spaces. Ive heard the term but never expected it to mean standing around idle, this is so stupid.
EDIT: nvm i was thinking about “littering”. english is hard.
You are thinking of littering. Loitering is standing around idle on another person’s property. It’s usually used now adays to move vagrants along but the law has jim crow origins.
Oh wow, you just blew my mind. I am in fact thinking about littering! I was a bit suspicious about me not realizing the true meaning sooner, but did not look into it further. This makes a lot more sense now, thank you for clearing this up. :)
It’s a common mistake since the words are very close, it does not help that many people who loiter also usually litter.
It’s a common mistake for non native English speakers. I thought the same for years but now know the difference.
Also, a driving licence and a driving loicence are the same thing. The latter is just in a British accent.
BTW, little newborn kittens or puppies are also called litter.
say “little kitten litter” 10 times
It’s baffling to me that you can get fined by just standing somewhere doing nothing…
As the guards around Skyrim will sternly remind you: “No lollygaggin”.
Or regular gagging.
Loitering…I don’t even think that word has a translation in my language. You made up a term and turn it into a crime?
I think it means like hanging around. But I guess they thought a ‘Hanging around’ charge would be hard to take seriously in court. Land of the free, eh
Started as a Dutch word then moved into middle English. I’m sure there is an equivalent word on whatever language you speak.
Loitering is illegal in the US because public spaces are free. Why are you just sitting in a public space for free when you could be sitting in a cafe or restaurant and contributing to the economy? Oh you don’t have that money? Well then you’re worthless to society and just shouldn’t exist, obviously.
when you could be sitting in a cafe or restaurant and contributing to the economy
or even better, being exploited for cheap labor in prison!
Only illegal if you’re a teenager or a minority.
Most (including my city) places, have no age/other restrictions on the law. Although they are often used against those groups.
Exactly.
Why would you seat doing nothing instead of making money to donate them to some FOSS projects, that are desperately needing them? And there are many such projects. Time to invest in good things, go grab some buzz and donate to your favourite FOSS project(s)! Then we go chilling in the forest with moon partisans and being worthless to regimes around the globe… together.
In the UK all farmland is fenced off, with occasional walking paths available. I used to think the Ridgeway was great because there was about 50 miles of trails one could walk on or ride a bike, and in summer motorbikes and 4x4s were allowed too.
It blew my mind when I moved to Spain and I worked out I could get pretty much anywhere off road whenever I felt like it.
For novelty I once rode my little motorbike from my house to the supermarket, with only about 50m on paved roads. It was very liberating. But unfortunately some of the yoghurt I bought got squashed by the jostling on the way home, and my bag smelled of bad milk for a couple months even after I’d washed it :-/
In Scotland under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 you can walk, camp, and explore most land in Scotland—even if it’s private—as long as you’re respectful, don’t cause damage, and give people (especially homes and farms) their space.
Yeah, bit then the midges get you
Seriously though, Scotland is mostly ahead of the rest of the UK in many ways. I had some of my best times in Scotland :-)
Necause you misspelled ‘but’ I then had to read your comment with a Scottish accent.
Aye, it’s a sexy accent alright
(I don’t have a Scottish accent, lol)
This is also true in New Hampshire in the US.
Great for them!
Nice!
The new coastal path has access rights down to the sea in most cases.
It’s not perfect, but there are cleaners with enzymes that really fight dairy spill smell. They’re primarily marketed here as pet odor destroyers. A spilled spring latte came back to haunt my car carpet in the summer despite my best cleaning efforts initially. I sprayed with the enzymatic cleaner and cut it in half within a few days. I sprayed again a week later and got rid of most of it. If it sits for a few days in the heat, I could smell it upon entering, but it easily got evacuated with open windows for a minute. Like 4 years later it’s still there very faintly, but now it has to sit for like a week in the summer and it’s only identifiable because I know what it is.
I think I have some of the cleaner already, for cleaning dog-related smells out if things, I just never thought of using it for spilled milk. It’ll save a lot of tears, thank you for the tip!
I disagree with the initial claim.
I can go sit just about anywhere without concern of being cited for loitering.
Not sure where you get this idea from.
Are you white?
TBF they might just not live in America. Never really seen “loitering” being a thing outside of that mistake of a country, or at least I haven’t seen it enforced and I’ve been everywhere in Western Europe (where one would assume these things are more enforced since they’re culturally closer, idk).
Yes its an american thing. I can sit where I want in my country, unless its blocking some entrance or something.
Its because in America, you are not a human being. Someone should have informed you.
Another thing ive seen in American movies - people are not allowed to park and sleep in their cars it seems. There is always some officer walking up and knocking on their window and telling them they cant be there. Seems to be another sign of America.
Yep, a lot of it is hostility to unhoused people, based on the myth that “they are all ‘psychotic drunk drug addicts’ that are horrible people”, hence why people believe they are (and deserve to be) unhoused. It’s why hostile architecture is so common and ingrained in the US.
Also, Racism of course.
It makes sense from the American culture point of view, that someone who makes money is a winner and someone who doesnt is a loser. Its a view of people that is pretty evil.
100%
Fuck prosperity gospel, it and racism are so deeply ingrained in this country, and cause so many of our societal issues
No, I’m rural in liberal territory.
I cannot think of a single place within 20 miles in any direction that is not indoors nor private property that any human being cannot be more or less indefinitely.
You can’t camp within like 250 ft vertical of the treeline. That’s off limits for protecting the environment reasons.
If you’re pulled over in a car I the side of the road, a state trooper may come to see if you’re ok. Our states troopers got a much better rep than our cops, and our cops don’t do too bad comparatively.
Acab, but know your enemy. It ain’t the outdoors.
You’re in New England aren’t you? BTW if this ends up being true, I actually didn’t stalk your profile to see. I am originally from MA and one of my favorite things about NE, and specifically MA, is that even the most rural spaces have pride flags and very progressive. It’s actually the suburban sprawl areas that are more purple, but not enough to turn any part of the stage red.
I fucking love the Berkshires and some day I am moving out there, that’s a promise I will keep to myself no matter how chaotic life gets, obviously so long as I am able to control it (eg, not drafted, don’t have to flee the nation, am not abducted by the modern S.A (ICE), etc)
My family is all over northern NY, and New England, Some PA and WV as well. Even the conservative pockets here are good between authority and your right to exist outdoors.
I just wish the neolib gun laws weren’t so insane. They know it’s treating a fever when the person is dying from sepsis, and they know capitalism and hyper-individualism is the disease, but these politicians make SOO much money off the system. They also know they can ausage the fears of NIMBYs and suburban white libs with some simple platitudes, get reelected, and continue making bank.
BTW, I’m not advocating for handing every person who walks into a shop a gun immediately, but as a leftist, I am against disarming the working class.
I assumed they’re Canadian based on liberal territory. However that doesn’t narrow it down much, looks like most of the territories vote red.
I was thinking New England too. I grew up in maine and there are very few places you’re banned from loitering. The cops, while still being fascist dirtbags, aren’t as bad as in more populous states.
LOVE Maine!! I need to visit Arcadia some time. I remember the first time I saw a full grown, wild moose was in Maine along a highway, we were pretty far north (probably about halfway up the state latitude wise), and she was HUGE. She had her fowl with her, and the baby was still the size of a freaking great dane.
“Our state troopers got a much better rep than our cops”
Man, I wish I lived in your state they are brutal dickheads here.
I think its less about being white and more about not looking homeless at least where I’m from.
Did the goalposts just move?
No, non-white people have always existed.
Nope. They’ve been this way since the 1700s.
Not everyone can.
Those elements oft scorned by society who might otherwise be ticketed or jailed for sleeping at a park are treated closer to equal when sleeping on the sand.
Do you look homeless?
In Canada, a very old arrangement dating from the creation of the country, says that navigable water is a federal matter. Whether it’s on the side of the ocean, a big lake, or a river, the water and anything below high tide is Crown “land”, and public. There are obviously exceptions and access by land can be controlled but not by water. At least not the beach itself.
It leads to weird situations, like a provincial park that can’t stop boaters from using remote parts of “their” beach. Or another where boats band together between some islands, and party and jetboat among kayaks and SUP.
But this also prevents owners of big houses around lakes to claim a part of that lake, or the foreshore.
We don’t have the right to roam in general here, with some exceptions for Crown lands, and it happens that bodies of water and rivers is Crown land.
Anyway, that’s how I understand this.
More of this country is crownlands than privately owned lands. Except for the National or Provincial Parks you can roam free without registration. There is no cell signal when you head out there, you need a sat phone or one way emergency beacon.
Yeah but my biggest issue is that I live in the south of Quebec without a car, and most land here except water is private. If i want access to Crown land and wild camp, I have to cycle for a few solid hours up north. Like, at least 100 km.
AFAIK even with a car, it’s like this for most of my province. The vast majority of the population lives concentrated around the archipelago and they have to drive a few hours north to get away from private land. Plus, it’s not easy to be certain what is Crown land or not.
If I am not laying on private property or in the entrance of a shop or something I can lay around whereever I want. I don’t really understand what OP is talking about.
In some areas, almost everything is private property. Including sidewalks, parks, beaches…
I was in a city that only had one green area that was publicly accessible. The was signs that you weren’t allowed to be on the grass, only the paths. So you could pretty much only walk through. Even just standing, you’d be in the way.
I get that the property owner sets the rules, but if everything is private, it gets hard to exist.
it gets hard to exist
You’re getting the idea
And that’s why I’m placing you under arrest.
America Bad, of course!
I think this is about assuming US = default, not good or bad
Blm land? National forest? Can lay around for 14 days straight.
The land billionaires are salivating to carve up, log and develop? That land?
EDIT: I realized that this comment seems a little to pessimistic and doomer. I didn’t mean it to sound like we should just roll over and accept that these beautiful areas are taken from us and others. We absolutely need to fight back, and you’d be surprised, that even most conservatives (save for the ultra-MAGA people) actually care about this land too and are deeply against it being privatized.
Now… Does that also say something about them caring less about POC than land, yes. But this is one of those issues you really don’t have to push very hard to get people to care about. Even if they’re not annual park visitors, a very large chunk of citizens in the US seem to care about this.
We just can’t get a break from you guys, can we? Doesn’t matter what the discussion is about, it always gets turned into US political grievances. This is what’s killing this platform and making every sane person leave.
i mean, this post is explicitly political tho?
This is a post about the legality of resting in different areas (apparently in the US), it’s inherently political.
I could understand if this were a sub about bunnies or something, but it’s not. I don’t think the fediverse is dying, and I dodn’t think you have to seek out reasons to clutch your pearls and be offended that people dare talk about the politics that affect their lives…
It’s a showerthoughts community. Nobody subscribes here for politics. There’s a time and place for that kind of discussion and this isn’t it and clearly I’m not the only one feeling that way.
So glad you get to live in a world where you get to ignore politics. Also, I’m assuming you live in another country, and that’s why you’re frustrated things default to the US. So do I. I fucking hate that the US Empire has Earth by the balls, though that is ending (thankfully).
And unfortunately, anything billionaires do here is often a sort of trial run for other countries. These assholes (Tech Asshole Billionaires, Heritage Foundation and theocratic asshats, Trump and Wallstreet, etc) want to carve up this entire fucking world and enslave us, like full on chattel slavery. That is, those of us they haven’t sent to death camps. We need to do everything we can to stop this.
You might not be a leftist, so the term endstage capitalism may or may not mean anything. But we are living in those times, and a few outcomes await us. One of them being techo-feudalism and surveillance dystopia, or a better world where we break this shit apart. Either way, politics is quickly affecting every single aspect of your life, because these assholes want to privatize every single minutia of your life if they can.
Maybe one day we can sit back and ignore ‘politics’ (as they are defined now), but until then, I believe we have a LOT of work to do.
It’s not a binary choice between consuming all the politics or none of it. It can be done on your own terms when you choose to, rather than being perpetually consumed by it all day every day. That’s an extremely unhealthy media diet that nobody should advocate for.
But it’s not consumption of media that’s the issue here. You’re offended that we’re mentioning political issues in a post about legality. You can ignore what you want, but everyone else doesn’t have to be silent or pretend they’re unrelated to make you happy.
I actually hear you and greatly sympathize with this. I absolutely need days when I just don’t pay attention to the news or politics, outside of my local community organizing and action. I really look forward to a world where politics means what the etymology does “the dealings of the city”, and not catastrophic, firehose levels of information about every single thing, each one of which is existential. I look forward, and work towards, a day when either I or those who come after me (don’t have kids and won’t) live in a society where politics means mostly things like planting community gardens, neighborhood groups, and distribution of commodities in a local environment. Where even the bigger issues are amazing, like high speed rail and massive green energy projects, space stations, and megastructures that benefit all, not just the elite.
I really want you to know that I really feel where you are coming from, and I desperately want this torrent to stop. It feels so inundating and all encompassing. I applaud you for taking days where you recharge and take a break. In a sense, there is a privilege involved to those of us who can afford to do so, but also I will use that privilege for that, so that I can then go and also use it to fight back and make a change.
I can only speak for myself here, but it’s not even about taking days off. It’s about protecting the remaining non-political places from being poisoned by political discussion. There are so many more appropriate places for it than the Showerthoughts community. I don’t think anyone subscribes here for politics - rather as an escape from them.
It’s just my one-man fight against the wind. I keep at it not because it makes a difference but because I care. Still, if I manage to make even a few people more conscious of it when posting, I consider my efforts worthwhile.
I also apologize for my harshness. I aspire to one day be able to take criticism the way you did.
I understand you, I do… And often the rich and (in the case of the US president, or) powerful pull this shit anywhere in the world. That Dubai palm tree-shaped beach nobody lives in, the Trump golf courses in Scotland… I’m not American and I have grievances against capitalist pigs destroying good land.
If you think this is exclusive to the US you’re denser than a brick.
Yep, enjoy it while you can!
Black Lives Matter land?
For the fellow east-of-the-mississippi and not-US folks. The US Bureau of Land Management (BLM) operates public lands with fairly loose rules about use, including camping up to 14 days.
Sorry, it’s just one of my favorite lines from White Lotus.
It’s actually BURNlNG MAN land with a typo’d lowercase L that’s gonna unnoticed but it’s too late to change the records now.
(burning Man is on BLM land and happens to also be where the land speed record is currently held - salt lake city salt flats weren’t big enough, apparently)
