This is great! Can’t wait for him to no be able to do anything due to gridlock from the NYC democratic party machine and have to capitulate constantly, and then the massive Centrist Lib media apparatus will blame every problem plaguing NYC (even if the problems predated his mayoralship) which will give the Dem establishment more ammunition to blame all their woes on the progressive wing of the party and sell disenfranchised urban poor voters on establishment Dems.
Really a big fucking win for us. Letting the city sink under and establishment Dem was totally not the smarter fucking move.
Also if anyone calls me a doomer for this take I’ll be recording your usernames and asking you how you feel about this post in a year from now.
Letting the city sink under and establishment Dem was totally not the smarter fucking move.
You may as well be a Posadist to say this. Fighting for things is good and waiting for things to get worse and worse as though you can then waltz in and win the confidence of the proletariat is nonsense. You’re not a doomer because doomers don’t pretend that giving up is 4D chess.
How very convenient when one’s analysis requires them to stay at home and do nothing.
actually my analysis says i need to go to beb and have a good sleeb
also, who’s to say that NYC will “sink” even in the next term of an establishment ghoul, and even if it does/conditions worsen to the point of no return, why would a compliant corporate media tell the general populace that it was happening?
if the media is going to pump doom propaganda to blame the social democrat, they were going to pump brunch normalcy propaganda or simply memoryhole everything to prop up the italian sexpest. as a nobody australian i may not be super informed on the day to day of NYC life, but i struggle to believe that NYC was going to reach a tipping point of institutional collapse within 2 years.
the only way that allowing the establishment dem to win was a “smarter move” is actively contributing to “sinking” the city - aka you were ready to wage a concerted bombing campaign against state assets and police forces the day he was sworn in. i have a feeling op is not exactly putting their foot down on the accelerator in this sense
edit: idk i know this probably sounded unhinged, but “nothing ever happens” posting just shits me, and a subset of that seems to be this idea of “strategic accelerationism” that always just so happens to absolve its proponents of any workload or responsibility (as per the other reply). acceleration only happens if the forces applied affect the rate of change of velocity physically - so fuck it, if you believe this shit works socially, it must work on the same principles. similarly, if you believe in this, then surely the inverse applies and force applied in a positive direction will ‘decelerate’ societal harm and should eventually result in acceleration in an intended direction.
yes, electorialism in many senses does fuck all, but it at least applies some force in the intended direction as little as it may be. “strategically doing nothing” does fuck all other than allowing the existing forces applied to continue applying the existing acceleration, and why would these existing institutions applying concerted societal force allow themselves to look bad? they’re gonna blame us anyway. I’m lazy as shit and even I see this. just fucking do something.note
I admit i know nothing of any theoretical analysis of accelerationism and am just rambling. feel free to call me a dumbass for misapplying concepts, but i stand by my statement that “strategically doing nothing” is still doing nothing and will never amount to any tangible positive change. If tangible positive change does somehow come about, you will receive no credit for it and deserve to be admonished for being a lazy fuck.
Humility is a great virtue, but you’re correct, I think. OP isn’t even really accelerationism because it doesn’t even take the agency to do acceleration (so that’s two garbage ideologies that it’s even worse than) but yeah, accelerationism in a scenario where capitalists are winning just means them winning more or the fascists taking over in case of collapse (which you are right, is not at all imminent). It’s a nonsense ideology equivalent to cheering on the rapture.
The wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: There’s actually zero difference between good and bad things you imbecile, you fucking moron
Let social democrats celebrate. They’re not really hurting anyone. This isn’t 1919 and they’re not currently standing in the way of a successful revolution. If you start stewing in petty resentments now it’s not going to serve you or anyone else. Save those feelings for when it matters.
It’s funny that the argument boils down to “you expect a social fascist (which I don’t think he is) to save you?” While these mfers also just sit around and wait for a vanguard to spontaneously emerge.
That’s just it. Everyone who read Lenin is just sitting there being like “MAN I CANT WAIT FOR THE VANGUARD TO COME START THE REVOLUTION AND PROTECT THE PROLETARIAT FROM CAPITALISTS!” Can some of you, like, help us?
it appears we have entered the realm of actual “posting is praxis” believers
Yeah well hopefully everyone knows that you ain’t going to post your way to revolution on Lemmy with all 27 of its users lol
There is also great value in having someone like him win, then fail to improve things or achieve anything. It teaches socialist-leaning people that electoralism achieves nothing. It’s ten years since Sanders, there’s a whole new generation that needs to be taught that lesson (apparently) lol.
At the very least it normalizes and demystifies socialism for many people, which in itself is worth something. Getting everyday people to consider socialism as a viable alternative to the status quo is a big deal, and having a socialist mayor in arguably the most important city in the US goes some way toward that. Even if Zorhan crashes and burns, it will still help radicalize people, as you said.
I do kind of agree with the notion that we shouldn’t put too much faith in electoral politics but at the same time we should always try to get socialists or leftwing people into positions of power when possible, for the reasons I stated above.
Yes exactly! I have to wonder how many people on hexbear picked up Lenin after watching Bernie get screwed.
then fail to improve things or achieve anything.
he’ll be better than adams and cuomo. what’s your standard for these failures? he’s not going to make a communist city-state, he’s not going to hang all the landlords in central park but it’s dumb as hell to expect those things
I can say I was one of them and I am 40.
why bother dooming
it’s a pleasant surprise
let it be
I think this argument is woefully doomer. At some point we have to support socialist candidates, and socialist organizing. The DSA and the Working Families party are showing up. The fight isn’t done, but it’s a W regardless
Is he doing socialist organizing? Or is this just an electoral campaign?
Electoralism is fine as a tactic in a larger strategy, but if the entire strategy is just electoralism it’s doomed to fail. There has to be a larger revolutionary project at work.
The only way we get to that project is through organizing, and delivering concrete wins for people so they trust us. I will judge Mamdani on whether he delivers on his promises. I understand being skeptical, but DSA and Future Mayor Mamdani are putting in the work of organizing, showing people that a better world is possible.
But is he doing socialist organizing?
Election campaigns can be a tactic, like I said, but if that’s the extent of his organizing then it can’t accomplish anything else other than temporary electoral wins.
This is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, delivering concrete wins purely through electoralism alone is absolutely impossible. If he doesn’t have a larger strategy, other tactics to fall back on besides getting elected, then he’s just going to run headfirst into the obstacles outlined in the OP.
Is there any strategy outside getting elected?
The rent freeze on subsidized housing is something that Mamdani can deliver day one. No possibility of interference from the reactionaries. As others in this thread have pointed out, Mamdani and DSA strategy also builds class consciousness.
I get where you are coming from, but I think that delivering these wins is itself the strategy. Just keep fighting, and we’ll get there.
Electoral strategy builds electoral consciousness. It seems to me that voters can’t imagine doing anything other than voting - that’s a serious problem!
A rent freeze would rule tho
NYC-DSA has seen a massive increase in members during his campaign. His campaign has created more socialists that have joined a political party. For socialists in the current environment, I think that’s one of the best outcomes of electoralism.
DSA isn’t exactly a political party though as much as I wish it were. That said, I think it’s still good people are joining. There are a lot of political lessons people will never learn unless they actually get involved in organizing work.
if you want DSA to be a political party one way for that to happen is to have the chapters in places like NYC get really big.
maybe there’s a path where dems continue to be geriatric losers, PSL forms a vanguard, and major DSA chapters get a few normie wins like this one and they can legitimize the vanguard instead of repeating the mistakes of the SPD.
If DSA becomes something akin to say the Sunrise Movement where members are just volunteers and staff run the whole thing then it’s not going to legitimize any sort of future vanguard. This is a real risk because frankly most people joining DSA have more familiarity volunteering and running liberal non profits than they have experience with the real participatory democracy of a vanguard party. So yes it’s great if DSA can attract more members. However that’s not sufficient for it to be a meaningfully stepping stone towards socialism.
You are correct. I’m definitely speaking to my personal ambitions lol. DSA is in a stage where they’re trying to figure out what a successful socialist party in America looks like.
Is there a strategy to turn the DSA into a real Party outside the Democrats? Because unless there’s a plan to form a real Party they’re just sheepdogging.
I won’t bore you with all the details, but yes. The details are currently what’s being worked on, but there is a consensus among DSA leaders outside of the “right” caucuses that DSA needs to begin experimenting with operating as a fully independent political party where possible. I could write a longer post if you’re interested, but it would be mostly internal politics stuff.
Sorry, let me clarify.
Is Mamdani pursuing such a strategy?
The problem is that DSA and Zohran are not actually organizing for anything other than getting Zohran elected. They do not work hand in hand nor are they likely to once he’s in office. This is pretty much a universal issue across all of DSA high profile elected officials. That often means DSA is used as a pool of eager volunteers for a campaign but nothing more. It also means that when the pressure to capitulate is particularly acute, DSA elected officials have a history of betraying some of DSA’s core values. AOC and Jamal Bowman are key examples here but it happens at the local level too. This all unfortunately means that people are never brought into DSA because candidates aren’t proud and open about their membership. It also generates a lot of internal strife within DSA which causes a lot of good organizers to burn out and leave the organization. Neither of those things is good for the development of the socialist movement.
Just to be clear though this is meant as a constructive critique. It’s not unique to Zohran and it’s been a problem in DSA for years. They might resolve it but I’m not entirely sure they will or if Zohran’s win will help. That said, I still like DSA and Zohran. It’s pretty cool seeing a sex pest cretin humiliated by some social democratic muslim guy from queens. Even if this isn’t a stepping stone to socialism, I think it’s fine to celebrate. It’s kind of like watching cops pepper spray themselves or billionaires getting crushed in a wildly unsafe submarine. It just reminds you that the people with power are vulnerable and that’s always a good feeling.
yeah the DSA should be activating members for things even when elections aren’t on. maybe someone on his campaign staff is cool like that.
They need to do more than activate members though. They also need to engage members in the actual practice of running a party and making decisions together in a cordial and democratic way. People in the US generally have almost no experience doing anything like that which is unfortunate because it’s a necessary precondition for any kind of vanguard party.
Thing is, DSA had like 7,000 members throughout then 90s, 00s and early 10s. Since then elections that put socialism front and center have driven those numbers up above 70,000. I can say the chapter near me hasn’t spent any energy on elections this year, instead focusing on buying and forgiving medical debt and putting people on a picket line so local workers didn’t have to be there for 72 hours straight without any breaks. The fact that the primary was covered so widely and people were clapping for an avowed socialist is not nothing. But we should still temper our expectations.
I want to be clear, I think it’s totally okay for DSA to spend time on electoral campaigns. I even think it’s good actually even if some members still believe in the idea of voting their way to socialism. I just think they need to act more democratically and in a more coordinated fashion.
why can’t you be happy that new yorkers will have a hot mayor
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I’ve seen good takes of yours and generally respect you, but I don’t like this one. Too much doomerism leads to doing nothing and sitting out the moment.
This is great!
Can’t wait for him to no be able to do anything due to gridlock from the NYC democratic party machine
Of course. And then radicalize supporters against the establishment more. “You elected me to get these things done, but these corrupt neoliberal ghouls defy the will of the masses!” Or if he won’t, then others can.
then the massive Centrist Lib media apparatus will blame every problem plaguing NYC (even if the problems predated his mayoralship) which will give the Dem establishment more ammunition to blame all their woes on the progressive wing of the party and sell disenfranchised urban poor voters on establishment Dems.
They do this anyway! No matter what progressives do the Dem establishment will always punch left. They do not care about truth.
We may as well take the symbolic win and do something with it.
Letting the city sink under and establishment Dem was totally not the smarter fucking move.
Everything is going to get worse whether we fight or not. The important thing is to let people see socialists, even “democratic” socialists, fighting for them. You don’t win friends and allies by standing by and not trying to help them. You do it by sticking your neck out for them. Waiting for the “perfect” moment to start fighting for the masses means it’ll never happen.
Also if anyone calls me a doomer for this take I’ll be recording your usernames and asking you how you feel about this post in a year from now
That’s fair.
So Hugo Chávez shouldn’t have run for president of Venezuela? While electoralism isn’t a magic bullet to achieve socialism, it is indeed one useful tool in the belt.
It will be a struggle, but if Mamdani can deliver positive change for his people, he can turn that into a movement.
Also if anyone calls me a doomer for this take I’ll be recording your usernames and asking you how you feel about this post in a year from now.
Quick Everyone call sovietbeertruck a doomer so sovietbeertruck has to either make one massive post or a thousand smaller posts.
this time the young progressive democrat will carry out the will of the people!
When I am a magnificent eunuch janissary In the Mamdani caliphate in a year I WILL be coming to find YOU!
Even if he disappoints it is something to work with. Just like how Sanders caused an uptick through mobilizing socdems and then disappointed them, helping them radicalize.
if bernie completely stayed out of the last two presidential elections we probably don’t even get this one.
fuck him anyway but normalizing socialism is good
It was the right’s demonizing of ‘socialism’ when I was a kid and then seeing ‘socialists’ like Bernie become popular that led me to look into wtf socialism even was, and now I’m here
There is essentially no proper civic or political education for kids in the US, this is good for starting them on the path to real leftism.I was taught about socialism in school, and it honestly seemed very reasonable to me, especially when contrasted with capitalism.
What i wasnt taught was about countries successfully implementing socialism (the USSR was apparently deviating from socialism) and so I just thought it was yet to ever work. Also I was taught the Nazis were some variant of socialism.
Then you get older and start becoming anti-socialist because “my stonks” or “the free market provides the best solution for all”. I think thats because anything socialist introduced into a capitalist society highlights the contradictions of capitalism. Then you need to come to the understanding that socialist reforms dont work, and the only way socialism can work is a complete transformation of society.
As Lenin (or I think Marx) states, you need to smash the old state and create a new one, the working class cannot simply lay hold of the state machinery to use it for its own advancement
he should immediately harness the full arsenal of the NYPD and invade Israel due to humanitarian concerns
