I think we need to have a tough talk about why it’s so much harder to have kids these days, but that would involve talking about wealth inequality and the death of the community.
One big one is that today’s parents put too much pressure on themselves (both individually and as a group) to always be supervising. Some parents don’t feel that they can leave their child alone for 30 minutes while they shower or clean, or watch TV, because we’ve built up expectations that everything is structured and that we’re supposed to sacrifice our individuality for the kid. Some recent research has shown that millennial parents are spending a lot more “hands on” time with their kids than any previous generation, rather than passive supervision like when kids are playing in the house while the adults do something else.
Plus there is a significant line of people who feel compelled to do high effort, high visibility shows of parenting effort: Instagram worthy birthday parties, more structured play and learning, high effort cooking of things from scratch rather than convenience foods, etc.
Finances (and working hours) are definitely a big part of it, but a bigger part is the shift in norms and expectations that we’re expected to be much more for our kids than prior generations.
A former coworker used to take leave when her kid was out of school. Kid was 10. I was a 10 year old “latchkey” kid in the 80’s, we’d get home, I’d make a snack for me and my 8 yr old brother. Then we’d ride our bikes until the streetlights came on, and we’d go home.
I’m not a parent. I don’t really think either her or my parents were “right” or “wrong”, but I don’t understand why that changed.
I don’t understand why that changed.
It’s easy to point at social media, and that’s part of it, but I think it’s probably the ubiquity of photos and videos, easily transmitted to others. Even those of us who aren’t on social media still send photos and videos of our kids to the grandparents, to cousins, to other friends and family. We’re constantly exposed to parenting highlights, which subtly shifts the expectations on what the non-highlight portions look like.
Yeah. Not having retired family in hood health nearby is an issue. Someone had to move for their career. Or died. Or is too fragile. Or still working.
Nearly need polygamy for the economic certainty.
My wife and I have 6 month old twins… we’re both only children too. We are so lucky that my mother in law moved to our town as soon as we told her. Both of my parents are disabled, and cannot assist. Also, my wife getting the 12 weeks fmla / baby bonding was fine, but not great. I got nothing for paternity leave from my office and took two weeks of pto when they were born. It was and still is rough. If we didn’t have MIL around, we’d be in a real tough spot…
The lack of paternity leave and shortness of maternity leave in (assuming) the US is absolutely criminal. I was lucky enough to get 4 months, and that was not nearly enough to get my feet fully back under me before returning to work.
The fact that you had to take PTO just to bond with your kid is upsetting and frustrates me because those first few months are so valuable, and I feel like dads often miss out on so much.
Support networks are so incredibly important to parents. Don’t have kids of my own, but am helping with my sibling’s kids. Babysitting and just general support split with my parents. Thankfully, they don’t need financial help but that’d be on the cards if it came to it.
Support networks like this, whether it’s family, neighbours, friends or some combination is almost mandatory if you’re not very wealthy. It takes a village to raise a child, after all.
It’s really straightforward to understand, there’s no “third places” for kids and kids are generally undesired in US society. It used to be, even if you weren’t religious, you had community because everyone in the neighborhood looked out for each other’s kids.
It’s a lot easier when you’re not outnumbered by kids and can swap with other adults, even if it’s 30 minutes to get a shower. Everyone is so isolated these days, it’s much more difficult to build support like that unless you are religious or have family involvement.
My street that I live on has twelve houses that front it, six on each side. Of those twelve houses, ten have kids, and nine have kids between 1 and 9 years old. It’s a real treat to be able to let the kids out, to share parenting responsibilities, to commiserate with the other parents when necessary, and to really just let the kids be kids. Sometimes there’s ten kids on the swingset in my backyard that is absolutely not designed for ten kids, or they’re riding bikes, or playing with chalk. It’s a real pleasure.
I bought the house 11 years ago. There were no kids. So we’ve kinda built the community. We’ve watched as houses go on sale, people come looking, and we would actually talk to them about our neighborhood.
So it’s kind of like the neighborhood that I grew up in at this point, and I really don’t think it was by accident. And I don’t think that my neighborhood is the only one like this.
Living the dream friend. I want that sense of community so bad. All my life I’ve lived isolated from others and it fucking sucks. My dad would always scold me: “go outside and play, get off the computer, blah blah blah” but like with whom? Glad your kids get to be kids. Cheers
I know, and I try not to take it for granted (although I do sometimes, because I’m just a guy). Until I was 10, I lived in a neighborhood where the houses were close together, the kids played outside, etc. Then we moved to a house on an acre and a half, which was huge in comparison to the like .18 acre property we lived on prior. You could fit five houses from my previous neighborhood on our lot. It was a beautiful home, great for playing outside – with just my brother and I. Not great for making friends in the neighborhood.
I tell the story often, but my wife is from a different place in Jersey than me, we didn’t meet until I was in my late 20s, a few years after my parents split, sold the house, and put that life behind us. One of her close friends got married a few years back, and beforehand, we went and I got to meet her friend’s fiance. We get to talking, and he tells me his last name, and it turns out they lived three houses down from me, but I had never met him because nobody went outside to play.
And it’s not to say we were homebodies. I played sports, I always was doing something, but it was also never less than a car ride away, which is isolating. So I don’t want my kids to live like that. They will walk to school when they’re old enough. They’ll walk downtown. They’ll throw rocks in the brooks that run through town. They’ll hang out under bridges. That’s important stuff to me.
I’m definitely not having kids for this reason, and many more. I’m doing I’d say okay right now. I’m stable ish. Why would I want to change that at all? I see my peers having kids and immediately they can’t afford to even go out to eat, and don’t have time to get a beer once every 4 months. They chose that, I don’t hold them against it, but why would I risk where I am for that?
Logically speaking it is definitely a hard sell. I imagine a lot more planning goes into having them these days, and the financial burden is considerable with all the other costs rising as well.
I only have one biological kid, he is 29 now. The other 3 are step kids. What I realized is that, for reasons probably too long to go on here, is:
- I am terrible with small kids, the younger, the worse time.
- Teenagers are easier for me to deal with
- I don’t get that “it’s worth it” or “this is the most rewarding thing” feeling. I feel like I should have never had any kids.when I am doing things with kids I am generally thinking “I want to do something else” not involving kids.
- While I am much better about it these days, there was a 10 year period where i dispised kids, with my spouse, at the time, not making the situation better. I don’t hate children, in general, anymore, I am still pretty ambivalent about anyone else kids.
That being said I love my kids, none of the above is their fault whatsoever. However,I totally get why people do not want kids.
It’s likely because you’re damaged and hopefully the generational abuse could at least improve with you
I actually, literally, have no idea what you are getting at.
You’re a dick
Dropped your /s mate. It doesn’t matter how clearly and objectively wrong the silly braindead sentiment you’re shitting out of your mouth is. No one will assume you’re being satirical. Everyone will just take your words at face value that you really are just a backward troglodyte mouth breathing waste of skin. But I’m willing to give you the benefit of a doubt that you said the dumbest fucking thing I’ve heard since last Wednesday in jest.
Mentally stable take on hating kids. Stay safe
Wtf.
The only people really thinking it’s “the most rewarding thing” are narcissistic psycopaths.
Nope, I love kids because they are so pure and that you can see how most people are good underneath all the shit. It’s tough to have kids, but it doesn’t contrast this whatsoever. Things go downhill fast for families where they don’t connect with their kids though, and for those that hasn’t had that, they will say things like you with vitriol because it’s hard to look in the mirror. Also, I happen to think it’s the most rewarding thing, but it’s maybe not everyone’s thing. But all people I met that hate kids have been abused even if they haven’t recognised it yet. The boomers were in my opinion really good at not perpetuating the fear and punishment as much, but for people in general to experience how grounded honest connected kids act we have a ways to go.
You should seek professional help.
I have a lot of professional help. Is that yet another trigger for you?
Oh no an american republican that thinks people are “triggered”.
I have a baby.
This is accurate.
I have twins.
Can confirm. totally accurate
While they are <5 years old yea
But let me tell you, once you cross that magical school threshold things get significantly easier. Though you’ll have to deal with more and more social type problems, but those are easy IMO as it’s mostly just talking with them
Each year after that is easier…at least until the teen years, but again that’s more social/attitude type problems, at least you can just leave a 15 year old at home by themselves and go socialize by yourself and stuff
This week is my five-year-old’s winter break from school. I was not aware of that fact until yesterday.
I do love them and being with them (my post history should reinforce that if you doubt me); I don’t regret parenthood in the least; but their presence has definitely altered my plans for the week, especially those related to work. (I live in a rural area and have no friends here outside of my household, so socializing has not significantly changed for me.)
Point being, you’re definitely correct about that part.
I do love them and being with them (my post history should reinforce that if you doubt me); I don’t regret parenthood in the least; but their presence has definitely altered my plans for the week, especially those related to work. (I live in a rural area and have no friends here outside of my household, so socializing has not significantly changed for me.)
I loathe the rise of that “Super Parents” ideology, like if you can reorient your entire life around your children, that’s cool.
But if you can’t match it does not mean you love your kids any less.
I agree with you. I’ve never known a parent who didn’t sometimes need a break, regardless of whether they take one. However, I know some people at least kind of feel like that’s a red flag, so I try to head it off at the pass, such as it is.
As a new dad whose baby does not sleep and needs constant attention… this is encouraging to hear.
Each year is easier in my experience. When they can move, they are less frustrated because they can get to want they want. When they can talk, they don’t need to shout in order to tell you that they are hungry. When they can reason, you can explain how you are thinking.
What really helped us early on was routines. For our first child, we wrote down when she slept and when she ate. Eventually, she would cry and we would look at the clock and realise “its time for food”. And that transitioned into learning that we need to make lunch now because she will be hungry soon.
Also, removing the diper was a way less scary affair than I though it would be.
Frustrated, angry and annoyed is her mood about 50% of the time. Super active and demanding, but can’t communicate what she wants. I think you’re right… it’ll get a bit calmer around here when she can at least move around more and communicate a bit.
Agreed! Diapers ain’t shit. My tolerance for grossness has shifted dramatically. And I feel like it must be more than just desensitization from exposure… I think it’s due more so to kin selection and instinct because the change took place almost immediately.
Frustrated, angry and annoyed is her mood about 50% of the time. Super active and demanding, but can’t communicate what she wants.
Yeah. That phase can suck. It gets better with time. Hang in there.
‘Preciate it! B)
Diapers ain’t shit.
I actually meant stop using them. I had an internal, unrational fear for when our first stopped using diapers. And when the time came, it was really easy for us.
But on the topic of grossness, one really gets desensitized. When they start eating real food, it starts smelling like real poop and you get used to real fast.
Always remember: This too shall pass
This got me through the worst nights. This, coffee and a large stock of favourite candies/snacks. Don’t worry, the sleep thing gets way better soon, hang in there!
Thanks! I’ll have to remember that. :)
Ah, so you’re saying kids are not an issue when someone else is taking care of them or they’re taking care of themselves. lol
At work, I was recently on one of the coffee-fetching breaks. Well, I actually fetched my trusty herbal tea. Then we met another guy at the coffee machine and they all started talking about how much coffee they drank. Eventually, they came to the conclusion that they were all addicted, because they had kids. And I just stood there with my trusty herbal tea, like yep, I don’t have kids.
I assure you, many of us were drinking copious amounts of coffee before kids, too.
Married 18 years, no kids. I think I drink something like 36+ ounces of coffee a day. Myth disproven, I guess.
So my question is…why? Coffee has never been good, or good for you. It doesn’t get you drunk. It has mild addictive qualities.
I’m just not seeing a positive here.
Who says coffee is not good for you? There’s a lot of benefits including reduced cancer risk supposedly. Lots of studies on it.
As for it not getting me drunk… why would I want that? Alcoholism runs in my immediate family, and while I will drink a bourbon on rare occasions, I’m not really much for alcohol. Don’t like it generally, and don’t enjoy being drunk.
With regard to drinking and enjoying coffee, I don’t have blood pressure issues and my resting heart rate can get into the low 60s if I’m not doing much, even when caffeinated. Coffee keeps me going, tastes good, and nothing better than a hot drink. I don’t drink soda or anything really besides water, tea (black teas and herbal), and coffee.
What are you Mormon? Caffeine alone is mild but decent stimulant that can help in a decent enough number of ways, coffee also doesnt have the notable downsides of sodas and is relatively cheap. Mind you I prefer caffeinated drink mixes but still same results more or less.
Sweet sweet survival juice
Also it’s healthier than energy drinks, by a lot
Caffeine can act as a mild pain killer without taking pain killer medicine. There’s one good thing right there. And the one thing everyone should try before writing off coffee as tasting bad is a light roast drip or Americano.
Urinating after a 2 hour meeting where you needed to go within the first ten minutes because you consumed too much diuretic is definitely an overwhelmingly strong feeling of release. I think it’s a kink thing for people who are scared of being called kinky.
You sound like someone with undiagnosed ADHD.
Possibly. Never diagnosed officially but a doctor suspected ADHD when I was a kid. My mom never followed up since back in the 80s being weird or different wasn’t as acceptable as today.
As an adult my wife suspected autism as well and I pretty much hit all the buttons for it. Don’t really care to investigate further currently, as it’s not like I can stop being me and an official diagnosis could cost me thousands of dollars.
If you’re not struggling with it, there’s no reason to treat it. Everyone’s a little different, you can’t pathologize individuality.
It’s absolutely a struggle (not the caffeine specifically, but… living in a dysfunctional world), my brain is a mess and my focus is terrible. A combination of caffeine, GABA, and 5-HTP keeps me functional. Without those and some sleep I can’t focus on anything.
I’m generally doing pretty well, though live with a constant low level of anxiety and constant level of some noise in my head (usually some random song stuck on repeat all the time, everytime I wake up, and all day if nothing else is happening). I’ve detoxed on caffeine in the past to confirm it wasn’t stimulant related, unfortunately it’s just my brain at work.
Granted, I’m lucky in some ways. My hobbies lean toward technical/nerdy stuff, I pretty much only read, play video games, work out physically, and tinker with random emulation and tech hobby projects. I work in IT and there’s nothing better than getting hyperfocused on an issue to solve, and I’m fixated on things like problem solving and power efficiency. It’s been pretty good for my career, though my social life is non-existent and I’m not good at maintaining connections with people. I’m lucky I met my wife and she likes me (she’s awesome).
I’m glad you’ve got a few tricks and assets to stay on top of it, at least. A better social life is on everyone’s list, these days it must be said.
I should look into those supplements you mentioned for my wife and kid, they sound promising at first glance.
I don’t actually feel too strongly about the social life. Wife and I are both introverts and enjoy our own and each other’s company fine. I had friends when I was younger (teens and 20s, I’m in my 40s now), but I would literally vanish for a month or three at a time until people would swing by just to make sure I was alive and drag me out of whatever I was doing. 😅
We’re happy as we are, and if I feel differently at some point, I’d probably be better off getting a dog than actually trying to make friends.
That’s a really small sample group. For another really small sample group, all the people I know that are addicted to coffee got there because they needed to stay awake at the wee hours of the night. Just in case someone decided taking shots at the Infantry in a combat zone was a good idea.
Uh…great story?
Thanks!
If you don’t want kids, don’t have kids.
Don’t let family, or even your significant other pressure in to it.
I’m sure it is fulfilling for some, but some parents are carrying too much guilt to admit have a kid can lead to depression.
It’s not that easy. Things change.
I am happy to have made the decision. However, I might have decided totally differently if I had known back then:
How badly the environment is going south (for humans) How bad my health would be (most critical things came up suddenly)
Among other things.
It definitely can. It took me 5 years after my kids were born to feel relatively normal again. 5 years is a long time to feel like you’re essentially trapped in your home. Granted, covid certainly didn’t help with that, but the pressure to act like everything is amazing all the time never made sense to me.
Kids are hard. There’s good moments too but as a percentage of your time they are more rare than the bad. Your brain does a good job of filtering out the bad when you look back on those times but that doesn’t make it easier to deal with in the moment.
I’m finding very little of this thread resonates with me. I have a toddler who I love and get to spend a whole day off with during the week. I still get to do my running, cycling, rock climbing. I get some reading done most nights.
I’ve mostly sacrificed video games and social life, but rock climbing is social and a happy child is far more rewarding than games.
There are sacrifices, but I don’t feel like I’ve given up my life. Is this because I don’t live in the USA?
It is because people are different.
Not living in the USA most definitely helps. The age of your kids makes a difference. My youngest is 16 months old and in his phase where he has no awareness of danger and sleeps like shit still and my gas tank is empty 24/7 by the shitty quality of sleep with the constant mental energy spent making sure he doesn’t kill himself. And that is when everyone is healthy.
I would litterally kill for them, but it is easy to understand why people feel like they do, especially with the current economic and societal context.
I think some just cope with parenthood better than others. Some take the feeling of bone deep mental and physical exhaustion and wonder “why/what the fuck was I thinking”. They just see all they are missing or regret not doing before. Others get that feeling and feel a deep satisfaction knowing it is a sign they are doing right for their kid. It completes them in a way that is inexplicable for those who don’t.
Not sure if that added anything or not but I felt it needed saying.
When the sleep sucks, everything else is worst for it.
I love my kids and I feel a great satisfaction raising them, but my tank is always running empty.
I think that parents are better at different stages of parenthood, and for me, between 9 months and 18 months is the fucking worst.
Some kids are definitely easier than others too. Both my kids wouldn’t sleep for more than 90 minutes at a time until they were a few years old; and when they were awake they would demand attention; like most kids that age who are awake do.
Maybe we got lucky with our kid’s sleep? I remember it was awful while my partner was on mat leave, but now they sleep through the night most nights so it’s usually other shit that’ll keep us up.
Were almost there. The oldest can manage herself for a little while in the morning and sleeps well
The youngest one is up at 5:30 - 5:45. It fucking sucks. And he still wakes up every other night.
6 more months and we should be over the bump.
Do you work more than 12 hours to make a basic income? I think that’d be a large difference between wherever you are and the US.
Nurse salary in the UK
My kid didn’t sleep through more than a few hours until she was around 2yo but I’d already had my 2nd when she was 20 months and he didn’t sleep through until he was around 2 also. Plus I had 2 c-sections to get over and we moved country. I don’t care about sacrificing an old social life but my health and fitness took a massive hit.
I don’t live in the USA either, good benefits here.
Same here. Some of the things that have helped make our situation easier:
- Where we live, by law my wife got a year per kid off of work for childcare. I don’t know how people do this without a full-time parent.
- Since I work remotely, if my wife had a rough night, she could sleep during the day without worrying the kid was going to kill themselves because I would be around.
- Our kids were definitely on the easier side, especially our first. They almost never cried for zero reason (90% of crying was quickly remediated with the “diapers, hungry, sleepy” checklist), they quickly started sleeping well, etc. Some people have complete devil kids, colic, etc.
What we gave up was doing things together as a couple (romantic dinners etc), as we always had to either bring the kids or stay home with them, but we could still do things on our own when we wanted to. We have family nearby, but they deemed themselves “too old” to look over the kids when they were still babies. Now that our kids are in elementary school age they’ve been able to sleep over once or twice a year when we get to do a parents getaway for our anniversary etc.
Really depends on your support network, and that’s not USA specific. If you have help and your kid is easy going, then life can be a lot easier than if you have no help and your kid is challenging. Help can takeany forms, so yes childcare in USA is expensive and hard to come by, but involved family can help a lot regardless of where you live.
curious if you have somewhere/someone you can trust the toddler with while you do those hobbies.
I found that having a support network (either personal through friends family, or socialized through the government) has a big effect on how miserable parents are early on.
There are sacrifices, but I don’t feel like I’ve given up my life.
Yeah, I think one has to think about carefully first before having kids, and be prepared what they have to sacrifice. Raising a child is not easy.
I think what this post is portraying is regret that they haven’t expected on what sacrifices they have to make to take care of a child. A lot of people want to get married and/or have kids just for the sake of it, because that is what society expect them to do.
Another big part is that so many people have virtually zero support. It’s just them and their kids. For the first few years, we lived a 4.5hr drive from any family support. I don’t even know how you find and vet babysitters these days.
It doesn’t help that we’re atheists, so we don’t even get the built in community support that a lot of churches provide.
I’m in a similar position. Secular childcare is insanely expensive and the only alternative is church preschool. For what its worth, I don’t worry about the more liberal religious schools as kids believe in Santa at that age anyways.
Same.
Japan doesn’t have babysitters. It suuuuuucks.
Wait there are no babysitters in Japan? I was only there for a year as a very much childless young adult, but for some reason I assumed there would be babysitters. Thinking back, I don’t think I ever knew someone who babysat unless it was an older sibling looking after younger siblings. Heck, I don’t even know the Japanese word for it. Wow, for some reason I really thought that was only a modern American problem.
Nope, there’s only a few on-call childcare services and they’re very expensive and booked way out in advance. You also have to do interviews with the care provider.
It’s definitely partly not being in the US. Economically… it’s just really rough. Childcare for our one kid is nearly as much as our monthly mortgage. We make decent money but still have only enough savings to survive 2, maybe 3 months without income.
I still have plenty of hobbies, but like, because finances are tight, we only have one car in a very very car dependent area. There’s simply no public transit where I live. So all of my hobbies have to be at home, or after when my kid goes to bed, which is usually close to 9:30pm, leaving an hour, maybe two, for time to myself during the week.
Do you still get to go places? I think the person in the comic used to travel a lot
Depends how much money you got. Once they are out of the “hold then in your lap” stage and you have to start paying for their airline seats it gets really expensive.
Not only that but trying to relax on a vacation with a small child must be miserable
My yearly vacation spot is iceland. How the hell would that work with a child
You don’t relax on vacation with small children. You’re always on alert, unless you got another family member or someone to look after your kids for a while.
You go because the kids have fun and enjoy it, but they’re also small enough they might not remember it at all anyway, so it can feel like a waste in that regard.
I guess the idea is to live precariously through your child.
Okay. That was very clever. I like that one.
My parents took me to a lot of places as a kid to make good memories for me. It didn’t work. My whole childhood is mostly just a big blur in my memory.
We have family time and take it in turns to have alone time. We also need less sleep than the kid.
Same. Of course there are sacrifices but I still enjoy my life and can do things. Work is what saps me the most and I love my job.
Its nice that you enjoy bein a dad. Do you and your other partner do equal parenting? Only One day in the work week with the kid sounds a bit odd. Maybe I am getting it wrong.
We both do 5 days in 4 (compressed hours) so we only have to pay for 3 days of childcare. I get to do fun things for a day with my kid, and the weekends are normal.
Ah interesting, sounds like a good model if you can find a good childcare. I think the comic refers to raising kids on your own without extra help. So it makes sense that there are fastly different experiences.
I am picking up more hobbies as my kids get older. I get into what they’re into.
There’s research that found that people without children are happier than people with children.
The urge to cum inside is the siren song of many
Vasectomy is a beautiful thing
Fleshlights are nice too tbh
Get both, experience Nirvana
Literally millions of year of evolution behind the urge of raw dogging.
Well, now I’m conflicted.
According to this study, after adjusting for income, having children is actually associated with higher happiness and well-being.
From a Psychology Today article that summarizes it:
However, household income may not be a good indicator of financial stress. A family with low income that lives in an area with a low cost of living might experience less financial stress than a family with a higher income that lives in an area with a much higher cost of living. Therefore, the researchers conducted an additional analysis in which they included a direct measure of whether or not the family experienced difficulties in paying bills in the last year. This analysis showed that difficulties in paying bills represented a central influence factor for the relation of having children and parental well-being. When the researchers statistically controlled for financial difficulties, having children was actually related to greater well-being in parents.
so having kids makes you happier as long as you can pay your bills?
Thanks for citing your resources, unlike others.
The study also said that people with children felt more fulfilled over all 🤷♀️
They measured basically immediate happiness and long term happiness. In immediate happiness, the child free group won. In longterm happiness, the parents won. Did a lot of research into that before deciding to have a baby.
Just gotta decide what works best for you and your life style
Sounds like a kind of crazy blanket statement for actual researchers to make but then again sociology research… well…
Why is it crazy? It seems like the most sensible conclusion - no kids reduces stress significantly. Maybe in a world without need it’d be the other way around, but we don’t live in a post-scarcity society, do we?
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Having kids forced me to be a better person. They forced me to step up and tackle my own problems that were preventing me from being a decent parent, and as a result outside of parenting I’m a better version of myself too.
Having kids made any kind of travel more difficult but honestly it’s opened up new things to me that I wouldn’t do without kids. That awesome new playground in town? Yeah I’m totally climbing on it chasing my kid and definitely not having a blast too! Same with the zip line, and the big slide! Going to do a corn maze in the fall and they’re all too easy? Have the child lead us on where to go and they’ll get me far more lost than I ever could get myself lost!
I’ve absolutely put off some hobbies that I’d like to explore because they aren’t compatible with kids of my kids’ ages, but they’ve become my hobbies as I nurture them and try to not only keep them alive (seriously these kids are way too skilled at trying to kill themselves or eachother) but also grow them into decent human beings
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mist Americans can’t afford kids, the main reason is simple as that
curious what happiness rates look like in real first world countries
Meaning has a lot to do with happiness and for me, my life has infinitely more meaning since the little one came along. A lot of people don’t need help finding meaning in their lives and that’s great, but taking care of my family is more rewarding than anything I have experienced. But yeah… not everyone is like me and that’s okay. Some people definitely shouldn’t have and/or don’t want kids and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Because it’s a simplistic blanket statement about a very complex issue. You think you can take a single factor “kids = stress” and that’s that?
No, but I do believe that complex issues with many factors can be boiled down into simpler averages. Besides, “stress” is just as multifaceted of an issue as anything else! It implies nothing about the root causes.
Moreover, this research article did not say “if you have kids, you will be miserable”. That is a personal choice you should make for personal reasons. Some people are happier with kids! But it’s also true that childless adults are on average happier.
The article did not say that but the originator of this thread did.
So nobody can arrive at any conclusions about complex topics? That’s like saying we can’t quantify global warning because climate science is complex.
I’m trying to imagine applying this logic to anything else.
Telling a friend not to try out for the baseball team, because playing baseball will increase your stress. Warning my sister not to watch a scary movie, because evidence shows they cause fear and discomfort. Breaking off a date with a cutie, because I’ve got butterflies and I don’t want to feel anxious.
What do these sociologists think about rollercoasters or car races or heavy metal concerts, I wonder?
You’re trying to incorrectly put words in scientist’s mouths here.
They did not say that a person should not have children.
They merely said that on average, people who don’t have children are happier.
If people could accidentally find themselves trapped in a heavy metal concert, (just like people accidentally find themselves stuck being parents), you’d find a similar conclusion - people who don’t go to heavy metal concerts are happier. But it turns out that concerts are elective, so the effect is unlikely to be present in real life for concerts.
This has nothing to do with the “goodness“ of concerts or parenthood - both of them are awesome when the people doing them chose to do it!
They didn’t poll occupants of nursing homes?
if you think your kid is keeping you out of a nursing home i have news for you
better to make 3mil+ and get in a really good assisted living and a well payed lawyer
Or instead of banking on money and wealth to save you, just spend your money now, eat healthy, exercise and take care of your body.
It won’t matter if you’re 70 in an expensive care home and you don’t know your name. I have a few elderly wealthy relatives in my wife’s family who are in great care homes but have no clue where they are or who any one is.
And I’ve seen my fair share of people getting old in my family. It isn’t pretty when you are constantly unwell and then your mind eventually falters and then fails.
Better to enjoy what you have now regardless if you have kids or not because none of us are guaranteed a good healthy mentally stable old age.
better to make 3mil+
This seems to be the logic stumble in the anti-natalist brain. “If I just don’t have kids, then I’ll be rich one day!”
At some level, you need to dismiss the fantasy of being rich in the future and think about being happy in the moment.
I spent five years fostering before we finally landed a permanent placement. I’ve had the pleasure of hosting kids from age 0 to 4. And I’ll say that the work of taking care of another person is so much more fulfilling than bullshit office work or some shitty service sector job.
I go to bed early and tired but satisfied, rather than staying up late and dreading the next day. I’m not counting the hours to a retirement 20 years from now. I’m focused on my son’s first words and steps.
Just like with dating or caring for a pet or visiting family abroad, the value isn’t bound by the money I’m spending. It’s about bonding with others and continuing a relationship I can only measure in hours together.
if you can’t afford retirement you can’t afford kids
also, sky diving without a parachute is real pretty if you ignore the landing
Plenty of people don’t live to retirement
and I too don’t wear my seatbelt because not everyone gets in a car accident
You can add 1 more to their sample size that confirms this to be true.
Glad that you feel happy. How do you know that this version of you is more happy than a version of you with kids?
babies stop being that hard after a few years
We have twins, currently 11 months old. Even we haven’t been this degraded after the first 3 months. The first three were more surviving that anything else and to this day are the most challenging period of time I had to get trough in my life. After that it startet getting better. I even shower sometimes now.
Actually, I held a baby once. It wasn’t hard at all. It was actually super squishy.
I was still squishy enough for my mom, to run me over when I was like 9. Only fractured my wrist, and had straw punctured holes all over me. It was fun, and horrifying.
…kinda just feels like this entire comment is just you shoehorning in the fact that your mom ran you over.
Which is a weird thing to brag about.
Relevant anecdotes, how do they work?
Seriously though this is a weird fucking reply dude, who’s bragging?
They are just thick and hard like a rock. And not squishy blood bags like the rest of us.
My two year old has been two for the past 5 years…
I remember one time I had an informal work related sitting and my boss asked if I could come. I told him that I can’t because it’s my week to babysit the 2yo and he was “just bring him along, it’ll be fine.” So I took him along and then spent the rest of the night babysitting him because my child is a fucking force of nature. He doesn’t tire, he will go wandering, he will touch everything and he will throw anything he can get his hands on. So when his nap time came and I had to take him home my boss said “I don’t remember my children being that hard.”
And that’s when I understood that if you have no siblings you were a fucking menace as a child. Parents who have more children do so because they thought the first one wasn’t that bad.
Your boss also probably didn’t do as much of the child rearing.
That being said, I tend to try to push aside the tough times. They’re a given. I try to just remember the good times as best I can.
Oooooh, I think Marty McFly might be fucking with the timelines again.
ok
Only a few years, eh 😅
Just 18
In this economy and housing market? You better expect to have them at home for 30 ish years unless they end uo being rich very early.
Hahaha, I’m in my mid 30’ and still a burden for my parents
spoken like an 18 year old
yep…
but hey, if you want to die alone with no support and nobody left who cares about you, in a nursing home, don’t have kids 😅
do you value love? having kids awakens an entirely new kind of love and happiness that you never experienced in your whole life….
but, if you’re a sociopath, definitely don’t have kids and collect money as an obsession or whatever….
first year is very hard, it gets much easier as time goes on….
nothing worthwhile is easy peasyWow everything about your comment and mindset is just a ball of toxicity and nope.
Yeah, let me just bring a human life into the world for my own selfish needs and desires without any consideration for them as a person…
It also ignores the many, many cases where children lose touch with their parents for various reasons, or the possibility that people care for each other without being forced to. Fortunately children (and spouses as well!) today can do whatever they want, leave their parents/partners if they try to emotionally blackmail them through wedding or blood contracts, and instead care for nice people.
i guess you missed the part about love
That’s not what they were leading with
well, maybe take in the entire thing at once instead of picking one sentence to complain about and ignoring the context
So instead of lamenting the fact that our society has little to no support for the elderly you decide to attack people who have no children, and decide they are sociopaths?
absolutely no
I’m not collecting money. I’m struggling to survive. There’s a difference!
I know a couple that didn’t have kids. When they got older they told me that the massive amount of money they had was meaningless to them and regrets not having kids.
One became a CEO for a pretty large Taiwanese company but at night he worked as a professor in a nearby college . The wife did something similar. A high profile lawyer by day, a professor at night.
They eventually ended up “adopting” young adult as their daughter they both met in school that was putting herself through school.
They skipped stright into the good padt
It’s not the fault of anyone alone that having kids is difficult, it has a lot to do with the economy and where the kids grow up. Sardonically braising someone for not wanting kids, especially if they may choose to have kids later in life, is a waste of words, especially considering how some people are born infertile, or sometimes become that way by giving birth. If you love kids so much, you should be taking care of them RIGHT NOW
not “not wanting” kids but ridiculing people who have them is my prob
Yeah because somebody who “isn’t” a psychopath writes like that.
ok,
Stop giving into social pressure to have children.
If you truly want to, have the resources, & you’re okay with making a lot of personal sacrifices, go for it.
But don’t do it just because it’s “expected of you” or anything else people say to try and guilt you into it. It will end up making everyone involved miserable.
It’s such a natural human function. In our super advanced society, it really ought to take as much sacrifice as daily bathroom breaks do.
The thing about kids is they make you notice aging. They grow up fast but you realize you still are too.
Hunching over in your 20s vs your 30s can be a big feel.
The first 3-5 years is incredibly stressful but it gets better as the kids are able to do more things for themselves and aren’t trying to kill themselves 24/7.
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Ooooo you’re about to re-enter the shitty zone in like 4 years when they turn into teens and start calling you Hitler for not letting them shoot fireworks out of the car sunroof.
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My god I feel you.
Yeah. I loved it when my kid got down to trying to kill itself (through sheer mind-bogglig stupidity, not intent) less than weekly. It really saves on energy, and makes bigger family adventures possible.
Just took my 3 year old to the hospital because I thought she had a concussion after climbing her sister’s walker and slipping backwards and hitting her head.
Turns out the vomiting was from a stomach virus thank god. Just bad timing.
I’m so tired.
Ganbatte!
and aren’t trying to kill themselves
well…
I don’t even understand how people fine the time, energy, and most importantly money to have children. I can barely find all three to do my hobbies.
Oh that’s easy. When you have kids, you stop having time for those hobbies. So you don’t have to worry about spending money on them anymore.
The kid becomes the hobby. Children are fascinating, they’re always growing and changing, they present a host of new challenges, and watching them grow up is at least as exciting as watching my Gundam model collection grow or golf score improve.
them grow up is at least as exciting as watching my Gundam model collection grow or golf score
I adore my kid, but I’ll withhold a final verdict until I hear more about your Gundam model collection.
Fortunately, I’ve raised my kid well enough that they’ll laugh if they find this comment, and will also check for updates on that Gundam model collection.
Simple: the moment you have a child, you stop being the person who had hobbies and interests and become a parent, a single-minded organism that exists solely to make sure your children make it to maturity in good shape. Your Spotify Wrapped becomes Baby Shark, your guitar or mountain bike or whatever gets ebayed to make room for a nursery, and travel plans become fiction, written around a character who is no longer you, a stolid lump of responsibility.
This does not sound very appealing, tbh
That’s because it omits what all of the things lost get replaced with. The time spent with your kid is incredible. Yes your YouTube playlist gets taken over by baby shark, but also you get to see them go from a lump that can barely move, to being able to do situps, then walk, then run up to you and start clapping their hands making the baby shark motions, and start cackling with the most genuine laughter you will ever hear in you life as you get up off the couch and pretend to scream “oh no the baby shark is gonna get me” as they chase you around the house.
It’s good times.
It’s also bad times. Like when you have to tell them no, or stop, or bed time, and they scream the scream of pure despair, as nothing in life could possibly be as painful, as terrible, as inhumanly awful as being told you’re not allowed to roll around in the broken glass that you just shattered on the ground by wildly throwing your teddy bear across the room.
Your life becomes singularly focused, You lose almost all of the things you were before, but your life is always interesting and meaningful. Except to other people. Other people think your hobbyless, in bed at 8 life, is boring.
Yeah…even then.
Sounds like a lot of rationalization and silver linings for a sunk cost. I mean, if parents feel fulfilled, awesome. But outwardly, it’s a hard sell. Unless the family has wealth, the odds are high that any kid born in the US is likely to have a worse experience than their parents did.
If I use my own, elder Millennial born of Boomers experiential framework, having children ultimately seems extremely selfish. The kids are born into a hellscape of Capitalistic predatory systems, and have to struggle for years, or decades to gain any kind of agency. Meanwhile, the ROI for all that stress and trauma is increasingly less. So, why put them through it? So that I can say I have progeny? To scratch a biological imperative’s itch? Nah. No thanks. The world doesn’t deserve kids; it hasn’t earned them.
Having kids is selfish, it’s the whole “point”. Any DNA based organism’s only goal is to clone that DNA. Evolution happened and now you get a chemical boost (or whatnot) that makes you feel like it is totally worth it (which I feel that it totally is).
I said it as nicely as I could.
Maybe you’ll get it if I put it like this: I heard the comparison once that children can instantly create experiences that feel like rolling on MDMA.
Yeah I’m pretty sure “just take drugs” is going to win this one. Like for starters, molly only disrupts my sleep for like one night. And I don’t need to buy it a plane ticket to take it on vacation.
You can (or should) also only take it like once a quarter.
That’s a really weird metaphor. And I’m going to express some serious dubiousness.
Also, why would I want to be rolling on MDMA around a bunch of kids? Nightmare scenario.
I think they meant the feeling of bliss and love you can get when you’re on MDMA. Not the hyper sensitivity and all that.
Your Spotify Wrapped becomes Baby Shark
Or you can just play your music. Babies and kids still like regular music. That’s what existed before the hyper commercialized crap came into existence. Kids just listened to what their parents listened too, and as they grew older would start seeking out new stuff.
guitar or mountain bike or whatever gets ebayed to make room for a nursery,
Are you confusing a guitar with a whole band? They don’t take up a whole room last I checked. You can just, you know, move the guitar.
And I don’t know why you’re storing your mountain bike inside in a room but if you can’t find somewhere else to place a muddy bike than indoors I’m a bedroom, then yeah, I think it’s safe to say you can’t afford a kid at the moment.
travel plans become fiction
You can still travel with a baby. Should you? Well, not on planes. But after a year, you can leave them with a relative / trusted person.
Someone who has issues these badly with kids like you tho shouldn’t have kids, so we do agree on that however.
This is a weirdly hostile comment… That comment describes parenting experiences for a lot of parents. Is that the absolute reality of everyone with kids? Of course not, but kids consuming a lot of time and resources is absolutely true.
So was the one I replied to
Yeah my dad just played his music on long car rides even when we were pretty young. Mountain bike you can just get a kids trailer for that. Once they get a bit older they can have their own bike.
And start a huge fight every time you want to go on a bike with them, so after a few years you just give up and watch your body deteriorate as you turn into a couch potato.
It’s not like those things are gone forever, infants are the most time intensive but as they get older that intensity fades.
By the time they reach elementary around 5 your energy and time should have returned to a decent chunk, about 10/11 you can start (ultimately based on their maturity/responsibility levels, every child is different) leaving them at home, they can make their own snacks, use the microwave and actually have some independence from you
So, 10 years of no hobbies. Big nope from me.
5 really, or less depending on what hobbies
10+ is just so you can leave them home alone. You could always try to get older children in on your hobbies for bonding lol
So, 10 years of no hobbies.
Not necessarily…
Could be much worse, depending how fragile the hobby is. Heh.
But joking aside, it’s more like 5 years, for most hobbies.
Can’t even escape this by being queer - I’m mid 30s and about half of my straight couple friends have kids now, none of the queer couples do, and yet we’re still asked about it sometimes, it’s so odd.
Fortunately all my siblings have at least one now so finally my mum’s stopped asking…
I mean… in a way… that’s a win for equality
On one hand, kids are great. They can come with a ton of joy and rewarding experiences. However, they are also exhausting, expensive, and will sometimes push you to the point where you’ll seriously wonder if you made a huge mistake.
I have three kids and I love them very much. I wouldn’t want to be without any of them but I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to have any. Being a parent is incredibly hard work.
Simply - Misery loves company.
