- cross-posted to:
- antiwork@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- antiwork@lemmy.world
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Legit had someone from my last job start going on a break room tirade about how “those damn unions just want your money” but strangely had no rebuttal when asked why giving them 2% of your paycheck is a bad thing when they negotiated your RAISE to be 15% and your health benefits add up to an additional savings of around 20%.
I’m SO SORRY you’re getting extra money and healthcare rather than the NOTHING you had before.
Nowadays I like to print up cards with unionizing information on them, facts vs myths, links to read up more, anti-union tactics, links to join unions, links to find HELP setting up a union, and basically anything I could cram into a business card. Now I leave about 10 of them any time I go into a non union store.
Given how previous management has reacted to “someone” leaving these in the break room, I’m sure I’ve caused a few sleepless nights.
For union dues, I’ll sometimes bring up strikes. People know that when unions strike, they aren’t working, and when they aren’t working, they aren’t getting paid. What they don’t realize is that most unions pay the employees during strikes, and that money has to come from somewhere.
You’re literally partially making sure you still get PAID when shit happens.
Very good point, and I honestly wonder how common that knowledge even is.
Then again, almost all anti-union propaganda hinges on people not knowing enough about the subject to call it out. As with most propaganda.
Nevermind! I see what was said was that the unions can pay striking workers but it wont be the standard rate. So striking could cause lost wages.
Hmm. It’s been a thing for every union I’ve been a part of, but it makes sense it wouldn’t be ALL of them that do it. I’m sure some just simply aren’t large enough to do it like that.
I would be worried the Union management isn’t corrupt though.
That’s something to worry about in every arena that involves money, not just unions. It’s just a fact of life that there are crooks and liars in the world.
In every arena that involves authority.
That’s true. I think that’s just what I’m trying to say. Unions are best for most jobs but are not great for all jobs. And they do have s lot of problems younger people might not realize. Some unions are bad for stiffing younger members giving work to older more experienced guys while younger guys pay the same dues. They can become the same shit different structure. So I’m not saying don’t unionize. But I am saying make sure the union serves its members and does not become just another thing that fucks you.
In the end I prefer things like cooperatives over unions but we’re a long way from there. But they also suffer the same old boys club. In the end I think we overlook that we’re all just evil corporation’s without power and money. In the end we should look at the culture itself because there’s a reason corruption is king
From the other side: I’m pro-union, but at my workplace I’m management.
One of the guys on my crew is terrible at his job. Just awful. Everyone hates working with him, he doesn’t get anything done on time, he’s either stupid or willfully ignorant, the list goes on and on.
The union, however, has negotiated that I can’t action for productivity. It literally doesn’t matter how badly he does his job, as long as he’s in his spot and something is happening, I can’t do anything. On top of that, this guy has seniority over most of the other guys on the crew, so I can’t even give him less hours without cutting the people who actually get shit done.
It’s incredibly frustrating, and the only thing I can do is watch his attendance like a hawk in the hopes I can get rid of him for being late one too many times.
No concerns about the company management being corrupt and working against your interests, though?
The company is openly for its own interest. Corrupting the company would mean using the company for something other than seeking profit. A union, which is on your side, is the thing where corruption makes it go from serving you to not serving you. A company wasn’t serving you in the first place.
so get involved and make sure it isn’t? tell people if you think the management is corrupt so they can be tossed out on their ass.
I honestly did not know that. I’ve been wondering how, for example, UAW workers can afford to strike for weeks.
The downside is that you won’t get paid as much as you would working. My union pays $200 a day to anyone on a picket line, but as a strike goes on, the money starts to run out.
Fortunately it hasn’t come to that for us.
Better than getting nothing during that time! $200/day for me would be a lot of money.
My local went on strike once in 2019, it lasted one day and everyone who picketed got $200.
Last year we threatened to strike, had an authorization vote, but our signatory contractors association wanted nothing to do with it and we basically got everything we asked for with no work stoppage.
The deal in my part of the country is that what with the CHIPS Act, there’s literally billions of dollars on the table and our signatory contractors can’t afford to get bogged down in labor disputes.
The upshot is that it leaves the unions sitting pretty since they can’t access these incredibly lucrative contracts without using highly-trained union labor.
There’s more to do with EMRs and the like, but I won’t bore you with the details.
I know this might not apply elsewhere as I’m in Australia, but I always bring up that your union fees are totally tax deductible so you get it all back at tax time.
It’s the same people that don’t get socialised healthcare. Union fees are like a tax that’s used to pay people to do work for you, in the case of worker unions, people that negotiate working conditions, benefits, and wages, in addition to lawyers that can both offer legal advice and representation should you be in need of it.
Here in Sweden we have lots of different unions. We have a tenants union that negotiate rent increases, ensure that landlords do their end of the contract, and will help you with legal proceedings should it be required.
There are also various “customer owned” institutions, like my bank, insurance company, and the grocery store I get most of my groceries from. The goal isn’t necessarily massive profits, but enough to sustain and develop the services, with surplus going back to the owners, that is the customers.
It just makes sense. We all make use of schools as children, so funding that with taxes makes sense. It ensures everyone gets a good education, and at least one good meal per day. Same thing applies to healthcare.
My mother WORKS IN HEALTHCARE as the intermediary for the hospital network and the insurance companies.
She literally sees the Financials of people every fucking day.
And still she thinks socialized Healthcare would tank the entire US. I’ve shown charts, studies, anecdotal evidence out the wazoo (which is where anecdotal evidence usually comes from) But no, I can’t possibly be right about this, it would mean someone who got stabbed will have to wait on 600 people with the sniffles to be seen by a doctor in 6 months. Because I guess in socialized medicine, triage doesn’t exist? You can’t logic someone out of a position they didn’t logic themselves into.
It’s always hard to get someone to realize a fact that would damage their paycheck.
I’ve actually talked to some health insurance drones that told me they’d gladly be out of a job due to universal healthcare.
Sure. People need to earn a living, after all. I’m talking more about general tendencies (unless you want to be extremely literal about that “always”) in how people take in new information. Messing with ego, preconceptions, tribal status or money are great ways to make that really difficult.
I don’t think the system would change that much, save for insurance companies not having a say in the healthcare a patient receives. It’s ridiculous that insurance companies come before the health of the patient.
Here in Sweden, if you have the sniffles, you don’t see a doctor. There’s nothing a doctor can do for you. If you get really ill, you go to the ER. Assuming you’re not actively dying, someone who gets stabbed will absolutely go before you. The ER doesn’t operate on a first-come-first-serve basis. If you come to the ER with the sniffles you’ll get to wait for a long-ass time, and at most they’ll send you home with some antipyretics and a suggestion to book a time at a clinic if your problems persist.
There are obviously issues. Gods do we have issues. In general though, the quality of care here in Sweden is ranked higher than that of the U.S.
Honestly I don’t see how it could be LOWER. I have a very dim view of the US Healthcare system, particularly where insurance companies are concerned.
Why do the surgery that only has a 93% chance of success that will give the person use of their legs, that costs $250,000 when a $300 wheelchair will get them from A to B.
Given that I have had to wait MONTHS for an appointment before, and my primary care Dr I have to schedule 2 months in advance, when people complain that they’ll have to wait longer than a week to see a doctor I wonder who they fucked over to get Healthcare that quickly.
Wait times differ greatly depending on where you are and what kind of care you’re seeking. I moved a couple of weeks ago, and decided to try and deal with my hot-flashes issue. Last Tuesday I opened an issue with my clinic, and I got an appointment for Thursday that week. In my old town I had a previously recurrent health issue that had me waiting for four months to see someone.
Sadly politics plays a part too. In the U.K. for example, if you’re a trans person and you’re seeking medical care your case will bounce around endlessly, and you might not ever see the care you need. Same procedures for cis-people can be organised really fast though. Philosophy tube made a really good video on the issue.
It’s also not uncommon for clinics to be understaffed, and the workers to be overworked. This obviously can also lead to issues. I’ve a friend whose cousin died because they didn’t recognise his type of cancer quick enough, despite him seeking help for it frequently. They honestly didn’t really look for it until they faked him passing out, prompting them to take him seriously.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Philosophy tube made a really good video on the issue.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
My problem with paying more taxes so everyone gets healthcare is that I put in the work, so that I get to see premium doctors. The socialized system lowers the incentive for there to be a spectrum of quality care. Instead you get the government standard, which is going to be like the DMV of healthcare. You are getting as good as can be what is offered to all, which is the antithesis of a capitalist system where your benefit from the fruits of your labor with a variety of options. The person on welfare with ten kids and no job shouldn’t get access to the same doctors as me, a working professional who knows not to have kids until I can afford them.
Gross.
What a long winded way to say “I am a piece of shit who likes to see others suffer, because feel I am superior.”
Either you stand to unfairly gain from the current system, or you’re an idiot who not only listens to companies like Walmart tell you about “welfare queens” but buys it hook line and sinker.
Or you’re a troll, I guess.
Because if you think what you pay in premiums is less than what you’d pay with properly managed universal healthcare, you’re simply stupid. Not ignorant, stupid. Unable or unwilling to learn.
why do you hate poor people
Because they have kids when they can’t afford them and I don’t do that. They are a burden on society by making bad decisions. I don’t hate them, but feel that they shouldn’t get handouts for being failures.
Why do you hate rich people?
gestures wildly at the world ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND?
Pretend I am. Articulate an argument and help me see.
Because they’re miserable egocentrics who would rather accrue wealth than help their fellow man.
Now, what have poor people done to deserve to suffer?
You seem to be arguing that rich people are bad people and poor people are good people, categorically.
Did I summarize that right?
My problem with paying more taxes so everyone gets healthcare is that I put in the work, so that I get to see premium doctors.
The U.S. spends the most on healthcare in the world, yet doesn’t have as good quality of healthcare as most countries with socialised healthcare. I get what you’re saying, and even ignoring the obvious social issues it raises, the system you’re defending just doesn’t work unless you’re obscenely rich.
If you’re on Lemmy I don’t think you’re obscenely rich.
Everyone else is (rightly) shooting on you for hating poor people. And there is some validity to what you’re saying about some portion of the poor adults you’re talking about. So the question you should be looking at is, “How do I get there to be less poor people?” Sure you could suggest a modest proposal, or you could promote ideas to minimize those poor children growing up to be poor adults. So what things make poor kids grow up to be poor adults? Well, the three biggest you’re going to see are lack of education, poor health and nutrition, and poor housing security. If you look at the numbers for anywhere else in the world, you’ll see that unless you’re fabulously wealthy you will generally see better health outcomes from universal healthcare, and it will probably cost you less, too. Properly funding public education is another key factor in making sure those poor kids have every chance to not be poor adults. Whiles you’re at it, keep funding those school lunch programs. Don’t worry, for every dollar spent on those, the economy sees multiple dollars of improvement. Housing can get a bit expensive, and even if you just did those other two, you would be doing a lot to reduce the number of poor kids who grow up to be poor adults. Now, if you were so outrageous as to propose police reforms to the point where the kids are less afraid of the cops than they are of the local gangs, that might be a benefit, too. Granted, none of this is quick or easy.
When it comes down to it, poor people are always going to cost something to deal with. You can worry about health, education, housing and social assistance, or you can worry about policing, jail, and supports and corrections for children. Neither option is free.
I will gladly pay a union.
Always worth it. Workers unite! ✊️
And if the US educational system continues the way its going then you all are going to get more people who turn their noses up at unions because they lack the intellectual capacity to release that the short term loss in revenue will lead to long term benefits.
I’ve had to explain how tax brackets work to my parents multiple times. And my mother was a math substitute teacher for over a decade before quitting because educational work isn’t worth the bullshit for little pay.
I will always vote for increased education budgets.
Pretty sure it’s been in that territory for a dozen years or two already. 😞
Can you provide a link to the cards so we can print them too?
When I get home, I’ll work on making a normal printable version!
I have a few hobby machines that do special things, so I have it scattered into a few files to make it go from one machine to the next.
Hoping that you find them.
I found the best comment on lemmy
Did your union negotiate you a 15% raise?
Did my union I joined when I got the job get me 15% more than the others already working there?
No.
Did I immediately get a little over 15% compared to similar job listing’s in the area, AND more than 18% more than my previous job?
Yes.
My union dues last pay? 30 dollars. My union just got the government of Ontario, the shitbag conservatives, who tried to illegally withhold raises from us, and won. My union guarantees I get a set wage because they bargain for it.
My wife’s union costs her $8 a paycheck.
It also gave her 9 more PTO days, better healthcare, and negotiated to triple any outside-of-work calls because the company used to do a thing where they would send you home, and then call you back later. Wtf.
Hasn’t Amazon been caught deducting pay arbitrarily from delivery drivers?
In fact, given a lot of them seem to be able to be terminated at a moment’s notice, so no guarantees of pay there either. And work rules? What?
Oh and talking to someone paid by the company about your grievances Vs someone independent seems like a worse alternative than the final bubble.
Man, these guys really suck at propaganda
They suck at propaganda because the claims are unverifiable lies? That’s not really the point of propaganda. Did it scare a number of employees into voting no on a union? If yes, then they propaganda’d just fine.
I’m so glad Amazon guarantees I’m going to be cucked on wages and job security.
said no worker ever.
I’m not sure how you can spin to be convincing through your arguments… It’s a pretty indefensible position intellectually
This is actually part of a pretty valid strategy. The trick is to flood them with the conclusion - they don’t need to be able to recite talking points, they just need to think “a union could be troublesome”. I’d also spread stories about Union busting (not with a paper trail!) And have dozens of these posters with different, unmemorable arguments
If you convince someone “unions are bad because they have problems with corruption”, they can be sat down, shown the numbers, the transparency measures, and how members could democratically boot out leadership if things go wrong. Their concern is dispelled, and if they accept the argument they’re solidly on team union and distrustful of management.
If you flood them with weak arguments that make sense on the surface but fall apart if you think about them, they’re left with the impression of an argument against unions. They aren’t going to remember it, and if they do it’ll sound like it couldn’t be right to say it out loud, but they felt that way. And they’re smart, so they must have been convinced by a better argument they just can’t remember clearly.
This is what subliminal messaging actually looks like, this shit is evil
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The amount paid for dues is greatly exceeded by the benefits of having a union.
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You ARE guaranteed pay, benefits, and rules because you have a contract with the employer that covers those things.
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Are these morons suggesting that the union will take over for management?
Are these morons suggesting that the union will take over for management?
That’d be a great reason to unionize
IWW has entered the chat
No the usual ‘argument’ that references is that it you have a complaint or preference or comment or whatever about your work or job duties, you have to bring it to your union rep, rather than talk directly with your employers management. Somehow that’s supposed to be an argument against unions.
Are these morons suggesting that the union will take over for management?
Some unions make disciplinary processes and who can be terminated under what conditions part of the contract. In the worst cases this creates a scenario where bad workers are functionally impossible to fire and the people there actually trying to get their work done have to deal with it, because the bad apple hasn’t been written up for identical violations on at least 3 different dates in the last 90 days, then been provided with explicit written directions of how not to do what they’ve been doing in a meeting with management and the union rep, then given another month before reevaluating if they’ve corrected the issue, then suspending them if they haven’t, then doing the whole process over again before being allowed to fire them. Passing the improvement plan evaluation resets the whole thing. Presuming what they’re doing isn’t an immediate risk of injury or death, that is (that has an expedited process).
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Boss: kids your age are so incredibly arrogant. You think you deserve the world.
Me: we are the same age.
Boss: huh
This actually happened.
People really out here thinking that if you’re a supervisor you just get like 20 years older lmao
Is union life for you?
It depends. Probably yes, unless your employer pulls shit like this, in which case you should have joined yesterday
Yup, if your employer is so dedicated to making sure you don’t join a union that they make posters about it, then you definitely need to join a union.
No guarantees on pay, benefits, or work rules
Uuuhhhhhhh, isn’t that the current state and literally what unions are for? Setting guarantees for all that shit?
Yeah, the whole point is having a legally binding contract that sets wages, hours, and working conditions. Also the “going through your union instead of your manager” is super dumb. It’s like saying, “why talk to your lawyer when you can just confess to the police?”
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No guarantee as in “theoretically, we could fold up our entire business instead of bothering to negotiate”. They won’t, of course, but it’s not liably false (IANAL) because there’s a valid weird hypothetical.
Not a hypothetical: Hostess folded, as did Yellow trucking. Unions can’t save a business from bad business decisions or destructive market forces.
But businesses fold all the time, union or no union. When business is good, unions make sure the employees get a fair piece of that.
They make union dues seem like a big deal, but not unionizing will cost you even more. A union will pay for itself when they negotiate a raise.
You have much fewer guarantees on pay, benefits, and work rules without a union on your side. Amazon can, and does, change policies at will. A union keeps them in check.
Bringing complaints directly to your supervisor or manager will solve nothing, and in the process, it will get you on their shit list. Sometimes, anonymity is priceless.
You have much fewer guarantees on pay, benefits, and work rules without a union on your side.
I disagree. Without a union, I CAN GUARANTEE you’re getting screwed.
Costco.
It’s not all companies that are trash. It’s just most.
My union dues are tax deductible too where I live
I’m very pro union. But not all unions are good. My father’s union is so bad he might actually be losing money. They just roll over for management to fuck them, barely negotiate anything at all. Last time, they ‘negotiated’ an increase in pay, and the increase was actually SMALLER than the increase in union dues.
Oh, and they only defend the worst of the worst. Litteral thief, stealing, caught on camera, multiple times ? Well defend you tooth and nails. 'Til the management litterally had to get police involved for them to back down.
Unions in general are good. But for some specific unions, ymmv.
100% agree. Some of my “favorites” are police unions, when they go to bat for obvious criminals. You or I would go to jail under the same circumstances, but those assholes don’t even get a reprimand, and still have authority over others.
Unions are meant to protect the people from overpowered companies. The police union instead protects an overpowered force against the will of the people.
The police unions are absolutely antithetical to the idea of unions as a whole
Good point. I made the mistake of thinking that because “union” is in the name, it’s the same thing. It most definitely is not.
Not all anything is good. That’s not how real life works. There’s only statistics. And statistically speaking, unions are the better choice.
Oh, and they only defend the worst of the worst.
Naw, more likely people only hear about the most dramatic examples. The every-day, my boss is picking on me stuff rarely gets much attention and is generally resolved quietly.
Litteral thief, stealing, caught on camera, multiple times ? Well defend you tooth and nails. 'Til the management litterally had to get police involved for them to back down.
The severity of the accusation shouldn’t disqualify someone from their union defending them. Also, for a criminal matter, why didn’t they go the police to begin with?
When it’s a low amount in theft, it’s more trouble involving police than just letting them go. It’s also on their record, barring them for future job and putting in legal problem
So it’s better for everyone involved. Unless union want to literally defend a thief
That’s because too many union members treat their union like a service being provided to them instead of something they’re providing for themselves. A union is what the members make it, and if people aren’t participating then yeah, it will probably suck.
Costco is (afaik) not unionized, though the company is union friendly (there may be unionized stores?). They are publicly traded. And workers are paid better than a living wage and have a bunch of benefits.
The company chooses to do this despite their shareholder responsibility, and I will never shut up about it.
Once you’re getting a fair shake, if the company establishes trust, you can get rid of the union. And the company can save the money they spend trying to ruin your lives on something else instead. Not all companies are trash.
But most are.
It’s absolutely vital for governments to promote workers’ ability to unionize and provide employees with rights to protect them from corporate greed.
My area of work doesn’t have unions.
That last paragraph is absolutely true. I’ve experienced it first hand.
make it have unions
I pay around £15 per month in membership fees at my Union. But if it weren’t for them, I’d have lost my house when the energy companies hiked their prices, end everyone else did the same to compensate.
Was it garaunteed that they’d win these negotiations? No.
Would I have been better off begging to my managers? Fuck no.
The fact that they have it on this blatant of a propaganda poster means that unions work.
And going through union for what you need is much more effective and quicker than letting a supervisor/manager drag their feet and kick the ball around, and that’s what makes union dues worth it.
That’s because the manager is incentivized to not help you, while the union is incentivized to help you.
Unions are game-theoretically necessary.
If employers have organizations advocating for them, it only makes sense for employees to have the same
The fact that they have it on this blatant of a propaganda poster means that unions work.
Not necessarily.
A poster this blatant means unions are bad for management.
It doesn’t prove that unions aren’t bad for both workers and management alike. Business isn’t a zero sum game. To show that something helps workers, you need to demonstrate that it helps workers.
Which is to say, this poster is a bad argument for unions. The success of the writers strike, on the other hand, is a good argument of how unions protect workers from the bad deals management offers.
“Dues deducted from paycheck” and “typically must go through union instead of your supervisor or manager” are true. At the same time, they’re minor inconveniences compared to what a bad employer does to you.
As I said in another comment, my dues are automatically paid through my PTO account which in turn is paid into by my employer. So yeah, it’s still my money, but it’s not coming out of my paycheck at all and I honestly don’t even notice it.
At least in my area, most of your big trade unions have this as an option for members through the IBEW credit union.
It’s not always necessary to ‘go through the union’ instead of speaking with your manager. For pay, conditions and other disputes, yes, you’d want the collective bargaining of a union to get the best deal. For other things, it’s not always necessary.
I had a fall at work a couple of years ago. I fractured my ankle and was away from work until it healed and I could work again. When I returned, the problem area that lead to my fall hadn’t been looked at. I raised it with management myself and they dealt with my concerns and rectified the issue. I informed my health and safety union rep of what I was doing and he agreed to take it up if necessary. It wasn’t.
The company I work for has a long history of working with unions. They obviously have their motivations to improve efficiency and profitability but generally aren’t arseholes about it. The toxic culture I see in other companies only comes about when bosses can get away with murder because employees aren’t able to stand together.
I personally prefer going through the union instead of my supervisor. Less stressful for me.
Typically must go through union instead of your supervisor or manager
Major plus in my book.
Very major, especially because it goes both ways. Hey Manager, if you got a problem with me take it up with my union rep.
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“Get informed”
Bold of you to tell people to do something that dangerous, Amazon.
Obviously that image is of a manager, you can tell by its over confident and under qualified stance.
Also what’s the point of getting informed if the last step is saying no? xD
I’m from France where unions are kinda everywhere and workers rights well protected : what the hell is this ? Is it real ?
Can’t say if this particular one is real but this definitely tracks in the USA. I’ve worked for companies that have mandatory meetings where anti union consultants will play out this kind of propaganda in real time.
It’s real. Welcome to America! We rebrand the idea of slavery every 100 years or so to great success!
In Spain it’s mandatory to have unions for companies with at least 10 employees.
Dunno if this image specifically is real, but anti-union stuff is common in the US.
I worked this one job where a couple of the employees tried to unionize. It had gotten far enough where there was going to be a vote.
Well the company sent this snake woman around that personally gave almost everyone one on one talks to convince them that unions are bad and they should vote “no” on unionizing.
For some reason none of my coworkers took even a second to wonder why the company was so hell bent on getting everyone to vote “no” that they set up one on one personal meetings with some random anti-union lady.
Yeah, enough people voted “no” that we didn’t get to unionize…
The one other thing I will say that was a bit baffling was that at a prior job I was working minimum wage and it had a union where I had to pay union dues. Wtf was the union doing where I was making less than minimum wage?? Not much apparently.
Fellow French - wait until you realize their unions only apply to one company and not a whole industry so they can’t actually do anything on a large scale. This broke me.
Wait so…having to go through your supervisor and manager is listed as a plus??? america or not, aint noone likes going through that, usually
