America is genocidal, sure, but so is every single other society in the history of civilization. America is exceptional because of the technology and the art it contributed to genocide, which is the goal of every civiliztion, remember. Pointing out the difference in scale of US atrocities just prevents us working together for greater justice.
https://lemmy.ml/comment/6343679 https://hexbear.net/comment/4329347
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You just have no appreciation for Amerikkkan art. Pleb.
Genocide trivialization is a common refrain of fascist discourse, the point of course is to normalize mass slaughter and paint it as an unavoidable feature of human society, while erasing the sociopolitical uniqueness of every genocide…“it happens all the time its not a big deal, and if it happens again big whoop survival of the fittest”
The a-historical insistence that EVERY “civilization” has committed genocide is another tactic of fascist rhetoric. That attempts to obscure the fact that it’s actaully STATES with a specific class character and political project that committ genocide, while merging the idea of states and civilization as being coterminous with each other and that they can’t be distinguished… “we’re all guilty thru out time and space so it would be hypocritical and traitorious to oppose genocide committed by one’s own civilization”
That form of rhetoric also tries to simultaneously collapse the concept of continuity… “it happened so long ago get over it” while also incoherently extending historical continuity past its breaking point… “oh so you condemn the genocide of native Americans, well what about the genocide carried out by the Mongols hmmm”
Basically fascists are ghouls and historically illiterate freaks
This. Fucking this is why I called out the comment to begin with. I don’t have the theoretical background to truly explain why this horrible sentiment is so insidious. Why it’s so disgusting and weasely. Thank you comrade, for putting to words all those things I found so despicable about the original comment but couldn’t articulate myself.
Happy to be of assistance
Wouldn’t it be fair to actually get the quote right.
I’ve read the work of your theorists here and not one has mentioned a civilization that never made the kinds of disgusting, vile, and despicable mistakes that the US made/makes.
If they have, sorry I missed that, so please enlighten me.
Also — get the quote right?
What the fuck are you talking about? The vast majority of modern states don’t even have the military capabilities of ‘making the mistakes’ the U.S. makes (here’s a thing, they aren’t mistakes), let alone at the scale they make them. Are you gonna claim like Uzbekistan is invading countries half-way across the globe or killed off 97% of it’s native population?
This is besides the fact that most of the time, genocide wasn’t economically on the table for most ancient empires, outside of re-settlement, and even then, that was pretty damn rare and thus was mentioned often when it did happen (Babylon, Persia etc.). Often rulers would brag of commiting genocide, but the historical (archeological) and genealogical record doesn’t agree with their proclamations. Actual genocide is usually fueled by a want for economic lesbarum or previous colonial economic divides and relationships.
For example, when ancient Pharaohs went south to ‘Subjugate Upper Egypt’ they surely fought battles (though again what battles they fought and how large they were are probably exaggerated) but Egyptian control of the area was always limited to a series of small forts that would mostly protect the gold mines and trade routes. It was not about population control. Imperialism? Sure. War Crimes? Sure. Settler-colonial genocide? No.
outside of re-settlement, and even then, that was pretty damn rare and thus was mentioned often when it did happen
I think the only ancient empires which did treated resettlements institutionally and did it routinely was Neo-Assyrian Empire and to way lesser extent, Neo-Babylonian, and they get shit for that in every single text about them, both contemporary and later.
It was the Neo-Assyrians, I always mix them up with the Persians.
Yup, Persians are famous rather from allowing people resettled by NA and NB empires to go back, and iirc they also did resettle some people but the topic is much less researched since it was not done as much and less documented, unlike Assyrians which not only documented everything (and even bragged about it), but their archives were preserved in much better state.
I was going, in my head, “I know the Babylonians and like one other one were really really into resettling, it was super uncommon. Eh fuck it, I’ll just put the Persians, the whole ancient Egyptian thing is what really blows that whole settler-colonial thing out of the water.” And then it was just a matter of figuring out whether I wanted to mention that the Jewish people who had been resettled by the Babylonians basically made up a story about being previously resettled in Egypt, in an attempt to foster a whole “We have been resettled once before and God brought us back.” parallelism with the Babylonian exile (which is a huge part of Jewish myth-making), which ended up being a huge part of the Old Testament, which is partially why people who’s only real exposure to history is like, the Bible and the Roman Empire (because of the Bible) (who also were not huge on resettlement, but arguably did some genocide on the Gauls), thinking it was common, when the archaeological record does not support that.
I should really look more into the Neo-Assyrians, if their records are better kept. Probably a bunch of cool reading or podcasts around it.
It’s all oppression down to the first turtle. I’m not sure that you are picking up on my position. I’m concede the US is the great satan. But what I’m not doing is allowing the oppressors to divide me from other human beings of good will in the hope that we are stronger United.
And if you think that the building of the pyramids did not involved slavery, oppression, and genocide, you’ll need to crack some books.
The building of the pyramids didn’t involve slavery they were built by paid laborers, maybe learn to actually read a book instead of just cracking it.
I can’t site any sources cuz this was a while ago, but I looked into it and apparently there is some debate over this among historians. It’s likely some slave labor was used building the pyramids but generally the guys doing most of the actual masonry work were paid freemen, cuz most slaves didn’t have the craft skills to do that kind of work.
And… it’s a controversial topic but yes, the ancient Egyptians used slaves. So… it does not absolve the US for a single second — what the US did was hideous and horrible.
Hardly however makes America mean murderer.
The US generally does not make mistakes, but commit deliberate crimes.
What I’m saying is that their deliberate brutalities are mistakes.
Aside from that not being what a mistake is, others have noted that in fact most countries have shown no interest in doing what the US has done, as can be seen from many countries existing for hundreds of years without sanctioning chattel slavery.
Let’s get the facts straight:
https://www.statista.com/chart/22057/countries-most-active-trans-atlantic-slave-trade/
I don’t particularly remember making the claim that the US was unique in its use of chattel slavery, though your own source admits
While only 300,000 arrived in the U.S. directly, more came to the present-day U.S. via the intra-American slave trade
And the numbers here are skewed by the US being counted separately from Britain while Portuguese colonies count for Portugal, to say nothing of the fact that most African diaspora slaves in the 13 colonies/US were born there, over 10 million, far more than what Portugal has in your chart.
You’re doing Holocaust-denial-level dogshit apologetics for your precious little white supremacy capital.
You said you’re American and are aware that this country was built on genocide. Then you said every major civilization has committed genocide (equivocating, but that’s beside the point of my question). What genocides have India and China committed?
Follow-on question, what genocides were Indian and Chinese civilizations built on? What about Persian civilization?
The Naga-Kuki war (1660-1948) The Maratha-Mughal wars (1680-1707)
China’s history is filled with Dynastic tyranny— each associated with brutal, repressive military conflicts.
Not sure where you are heading with that.
Like I said, collapsing historical continuity past the point of logical coherence
Also blatantly ignoring the fact Chinese and Indian civilization were not built on the basis of those wars and the fact the states that prosecuted those wars no longer exist
The US state on the otherhand maintains a legal and poltical continuity all the way back to 1776 and continues to inflict atrocities based on the sociopolitical economic logic of its founding
Also I love how you obviously just googled random wars from Indian and Chinese history as if that means something, kid log off and go do your homework
And you seem perfectly willing to completely disregard those wars, oppression, and tyranny because it doesn’t service the narrative that… what? That no country has ever been as horrible as the United States? Really?
How should one regard a 400 year old war perpetrated by a state that no longer exists for a poltical tradition no one alive follows?
The only reason you bring up this irrelevant nonsense is because you want to trivialize and downplay the very recent and extremely relevant crimes of the US empire which currently dominates the world
It’s such a childish and disingenuous argument, but hey I don’t expect honesty or historical literacy from brain dead fascists
Wouldn’t it be fair to actually get the quote right.
What tf are you talking about? The only thing I quoted you on I did so with a screenshot. What did I quote wrong according to you? Do you think I went and edited the image file or something? lol If you’re talking about the person I replied to, who did make use of quotation marks in their comment, it was clear to everyone that they were not directly quoting you. They were demonstrating a sentiment, one that most here can recognize as common among fascists, a sentiment that you also leaned heavily on, even if you didn’t outright say it. You’re just picking some little thing to be mad about like “you mis-quoted me!!” because the content of CyborgMarx’s comment was spot on and you just aren’t capable of countering it.
I’ve read the work of your theorists here
You’ve read the “theorists” “here”? Do you think I’m talking about other commenters when I refer to theory? lol. No, I doubt you’ve read any theory. Marx and Engels? Lenin? Or maybe more directly relevant to this, Gramsci? Debord? Fanon?
not one has mentioned a civilization that never made the kinds of disgusting, vile, and despicable mistakes that the US made/makes.
I’ll defer to the other people who commented and answered this, making clear to everyone that you don’t know wtf you’re even talking about.
If they have, sorry I missed that, so please enlighten me.
Well, they did, so I hope you consider yourself enlightened now.
Also — get the quote right?
What, you want I should get a higher resolution screenshot next time? lol
Loved that exhaustive list of just societies. Nice. You win.
What, you didn’t like the fact that others already schooled you on that topic, and you wanted me to hold your hand through that too? No, I think it’s actually that you’re embarrassed that you have exactly zilch to say of any consequence in response to everything else in my comment. Whatever the case, I’m happy to leave it as-is, since anyone who can read beyond a grade-2 level will recognize your cringe for what it is. You can’t even fall back on that bullshit you made up about being misquoted, since even that was an obvious lie. 🙄
Seriously — this thread went sideways. It started when someone decided to redefine the word murderer as America. As ridiculous a claim as possible, unless of course you have zero understanding of what America is.
I have conceded from the emergence of the thread that America has committed genocide.
Sadly, I’ll also bring up that your use of contemporary technology and media owes so much to American ingenuity and innovation that you might reconsider your attachment to it. Just sayin’.
I also remember you clutching after your pearls when I mentioned that other states have engaged in brutal, despicable acts of genicidal oppression. Oh — but you seem to want to make the US exceptional here when sadly it isn’t.
I’ve read the work of your theorists
lmao kid you haven’t read shit
Well, besides that you are the vastly superior exemplar of refinement and intellect, and besides that I am a cretin, what claim are you intent on supporting in all this?
I’ve read the work of your theorists
Oh really? Which ones?
Sadly here I was in fact mocking the other commenters in the thread who failed to establish that the definition of murderer is America.
I did not realize that the conversation had a chance of venue.
I’ve since piece together that the initial comment that I made was on a meme equating the definition of murderer is America.
My response was to simply call to mind the notion that America is so complicated that Americans themselves cannot even agree on a definition.
My reading on the topic has been focused on Chomsky, Zinn, and Klein.
And what’s weird, is that I’m pretty sure everyone here knows and respects those thinkers. I’m pretty sure that despite that we are strangers on the internet — some who want to suggest that the apropos definition of Murderer is America and one who who believes America to be a more complicated place — we have more in common than not.
He hate injustice, oppression, murder. We revile what’s happening in the Middle East right now. We despise fascism and want to see Trump jailed at the very least.
Anyway— the original meme has been downvoted steadily. I’ve been called a fascist despite that I personally faced down federal thugs during the George Floyd protests and took a club to the throat.
And I believe there are also activists here who have suffers for their principles.
What gets me is this tendency to destroy someone you disagree with rather than educate?
What gets me is this tendency to destroy someone you disagree with rather than educate?
You can’t even be bothered to retain one sentence. Don’t pretend you’re here in good faith.
I’m pretty sure everyone here knows and respects those thinkers.
Excellent comment, saving this one for a rainy day.
Reminds me of that one lib on here who said slavery wasn’t all bad because now there’s rap music.
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Can’t decide if this is better or worse than the they’d all be living in mud huts argument. The mud huts is a clearly racist take, but reducing human suffering to cultural output is just so ghoulish.
There are a lot of Americans who really struggle with the idea that America might not be the greatest nation ever to exist. They have to create ever more elaborate excuses why any negative thing is actually fine and does not tarnish americas perfect name.
drinking with co-workers once the topic of US vs China competition for hegemony comes up- the “smartest” and most well traveled person in the room argued with me that he’d prefer the US be on top of the world because they prefer the cultural products (marvel movies) of the US.
I asked, " is it really worth all that bloodshed for another remake of a movie you’ve already seen?!" and the guy actually hesitated with that one so idk
edit: I should mention we don’t even live with the great satan itself, but adjacent to it
People severely underestimate US soft power and think most of the world wants to live there to avoid imperialism. The sad truth is that most want to live there because of the power of Hollywood.
Soft power has the ability to completely shift public opinion in favor of your country no matter what you do after a few generations. Just look at Vietnam with the US or Taiwan with Japan.
My god that’s depressing, but I think you’re 100% correct. I think about this every time I watch another piece of media where yet another rich, beautiful, tv/movie star (even when they’re coded as being plain and poor) is completely consumed with solving their SUPER important in-universe problem, a problem which if thought about for more than 3 seconds is actually the most trivial, mundane, and ultimately inconsequential “problem,” one that is easily solved when you consider the star’s exceptionally privileged material conditions at their disposal, yet is still totally a universally relatable problem of course.
People watch that over and over and think “so that’s what American’s problems are like! Those lucky bastards! The culture I live in should be more like theirs, and then my problems would be more like theirs too.” even if it’s all subconscious. I mean, I know it happens to me way more than I like to admit even though I try to be aware of it and fight it off in my own mind. The soft power of hegemony as propagated through entertainment mediums is deep as fuck, insidious, tenacious, and overwhelmingly effective. One of the main reasons it works so well is that people like to think they’re immune to propaganda and are just having fun consuming some treats. (trying to channel @UlyssesT with that last sentence, he knew what I’m talking about.)
it’ll be worth it FOR SQUIBS
have they considered engaging with Chinese media because they make some really fun stuff
“…Listen – I’m American”
Sorry, that’s just history
Beyond the fact that, no it fucking isn’t, can we send the lemmytors back to the smug den whence they came? I’m sure they’d fit back in swimmingly.
Lemmoids
“Sorry, that’s just history.”Capitalist realism but for the past as well. Fucking bleak position to be unaware that not all of human history is just genocide and mass slaughter
bourgeois whitewashed version of historical materialism: “we’re all guilty of genocide haha”
Whom amongst us
“All societies are genocidal” is some incredible Westerner cope.
Lemmytor said that, so i asked them to compare San Marino and UK, in return i got the good old hooman natur:
But then, it’s just leaders bad, no material conditions whatsoever involved
really simple paradigm shift:
ask why they downplay their atrocities in some contexts but brag about them in others
IE: all over reddit, or anywhere
Americans congregate, has a slew of comments like “Iran’s about to find out why we don’t have free healthcare” and the like, which are obviously prideful/braggingThe reason they do this is that there are two paradigms–a power and a fairness paradigm–the former prides itself on brutality/killing while the latter on equality/kindness
All the comments you see on reddit are americans getting drunk off power paradigm in order to feel a vicarious sense of self-esteem
The problem is that power depends on implicit consent of the less powerful to be governed. And if things are too inequal for them, they will fight back, and the whole system will become unstable and less powerful. This is why liberals fake niceness towards POC, it’s also why Russia/China/etc are allied, etc.
Comments like OP are just
trying to have their cake and eat it too. They will never shut up about “positives” (american inventions/culture) but when confronted about negatives (genocides and war killings) , they always say “uh uh but wait, every people committed genocide at some point in history”. Imagine if whenever someone was talking about Galileo or something, I said “uhh but actually India invented numbers and China invented gunpowder”. You would say I was being insecure and defensive, and you’d be right if I did that EVERY TIME that happened, and this is also exactly equivalent to what every American does when there’s a discussion about American genocides and war crimes–they respond with extreme defensiveness because the reality is that yes, China and India were behind for the last few hundred years, and America/Europe did commit the biggest genocides of the last 500 years.This deflection is an attempt to save face during value inversion–when the values are inverted into fairness morality, and violence/brutality are now bad, suddenly America becomes unexceptional and just a footnote compared to every other human empire that existed. When we’re back on reddit however, “Vietnam barely even won, look at our K/D ratio”
Vietnam barely even won, look at our K/D ratio
this is actually bragging about killing men, women, and children, burning villages. It’s so fucked up
Americans congregate, has a slew of comments like “Iran’s about to find out why we don’t have free healthcare”
option 1 you have security in your old age, option 2 some guy in another part of the world whos name you will never know will die
imagine bragging about picking option 2
On one hand, constant offensive wars and support of apartheid states. On the other hand, the Juicero, so y’know it evens out at the end.
“Listen all civilizations were genocidal. Amerikka is just the best at genocide. USA #1”
This person might be
, but more likely they’re a :matt-egglesias: type that thinks that taking the most 
possible view of human nature makes them 
Someone’s packing that emoji game since UlyssesT left. Godspeed PM 🫡
“every country kills people so its pointless to say that we shouldn’t do that anymore, its just the way of the world” is such a braindead take.
But whose blood is shed matters.
