Is it simply over-correcting in response to western anti-communist propaganda? I’d like to think it’s simply memeing for memes sake, but it feels too genuine.

  • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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    2 months ago

    I need to ask something off topic:

    You’re getting insta downvoted (maybe me too, or you’re downvoting me, don’t care).

    Dear lurker, care to join?

    Poland depended quite heavily on the USSR and was integrated into socialist trade, which worked remarkably well for developing Poland

    I dismissed the only source you gave for that by pointing the author clearly didn’t know what they were talking about “Poland had no chemical industry”.

    I gave Polish sources that show the numbers that it did not work well for Poland development. I told you about the transfer rubles, that the USSR was dictating the prices of good to be paid in those and requiring them paid back in the USD.

    I told you (with sources) you how the USSR forced Poland to take foreign loans during 1970 and 1980, that later had to be repaid after Poland was allowed to leave USSR and that it was the reason we had to privatize shitton of stuff and had galloping inflation in the early 90s (Poland and the IMF).

    I listed somewhere in the topic list of heavy industries stolen by the USSR just after the war.

    We compared poverty rates, GDP per capita in PPP all in favour of Poland not being an occupied country.

    I linked to Polish protests and general strikes against USSR forcing Poland into food poverty in the 1980s.

    And yet you still claim that USSR occupation was good for the Poland and Polish people financially.

    Can you imagine an argument that would convince you that you’re wrong? What would that argument be?

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      I gave you more than just those sources, it’s like you forgot that we had an entire conversation days ago. The USSR was not colonizing Poland, and socialism worked dramatically well for Poland. Of course, it wasn’t perfect, but at the same time it doesn’t mean abandoning socialism was the correct move.

      I gave you sources on instability of growth, on skyrocketing poverty rates, on real industrial development, and more. You’re taking the wording of Poland having “no” chemical industry in the context of a broader point on development of industry, which Poland was lagging behind in prior to socialism, as an excuse to dismiss the entire point.

      Can you imagine an argument that would convince you that you’re wrong? What would that argument be?

      If you were willing to actually read my points instead of brushing them away and spiraling into endless tangents then perhaps I would be able to be swayed by you. However, on the things we can both agree on as fact, we utterly disagree on interpretation.

      • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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        2 months ago

        ect, but at the same time it doesn’t mean abandoning socialism was the correct move.

        The point I made was that USSR (who happened to be pretending to be socialist) SUCKED for Poland and freeing itself from USSR was good for Poland (even though now were stuck with the capitalism).

        I gave you sources on instability of growth, on skyrocketing poverty rates, on real industrial development , and more. You’re taking the wording of Poland having “no” chemical industry in the context of a broader point on development of industry, which Poland was lagging behind in prior to socialism, as an excuse to dismiss the entire point.

        The instability of growth I dismiss as immaterial. Why is growth supposed to be stable?

        Skyrocketing poverty rates - refuted as loan repayment and bankrupcy under USSR - please note that your data points same poverty as 1.5% vs (vastly more during multiple decades under USSR occupation).

        on real industrial development

        Financed on loans Poland was forced to make that made sure the Poland was not self sustainable.

        You’re taking the wording of Poland having “no” chemical industry in the context of

        If the Dorothy whatever bases her theory on Polish development under USSR based on the wrong data (like critically wrong), and your unable to provide other sources, you’ve made false claims, not a point.

        However, on the things we can both agree on as fact, we utterly disagree on interpretation.

        I doubt that we agree on facts, as the what you quote as facts doesn’t always seem to be… anchored… in reality. And yet not once you said “you’re right, bad source”. I did a few times?

        tangents then perhaps I would be able to be swayed by you.

        Oh, that’s no longer something I think is possible. Now I genuinely wonder if there’s a fact, or an argument, or smthing, that could make you change your wrong opinion that USSR occupation was good for Poland (against will of Polish worker class might I add, as proven by the multiple strikes - you also need to understand that the strikes were not necessarily against socialism system, but against being forced by USSR into subserviency)

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          The USSR was socialist, public ownership was the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes controlled the state. The fact that you claim that they were “pretending” to be socialist just calls the rest of your points into question. The dissolution of socialism resulted in the far-right taking hold of Poland, purging the left, and selling the country out to the west.

          The instability of growth I dismiss as immaterial. Why is growth supposed to be stable?

          Growth being unstable points to problems with the economy, slumps, overproduction and other inefficiencies.

          Skyrocketing poverty rates - refuted as loan repayment and bankrupcy under USSR - please note that your data points same poverty as 1.5% vs (vastly more during multiple decades under USSR occupation).

          Poverty skyrocketed after the dissolution of socialism. Poland then sold out to the west, and joined the imperialists in Europe. Poland’s economic gains as of late are primarily due to being folded into the western Empire.

          Financed on loans Poland was forced to make that made sure the Poland was not self sustainable.

          Poland and the USSR were both devastated by war. There were certianly economic problems, but this is not a case of colonialism.

          If the Dorothy whatever bases her theory on Polish development under USSR based on the wrong data (like critically wrong), and your unable to provide other sources, you’ve made false claims, not a point.

          Given how you’ve misread most of my sources, it’s unsurprising that you’re misreading Dorothy showing the drastic difference between socialist Poland’s chemical production and pre-War.

          I doubt that we agree on facts, as the what you quote as facts doesn’t always seem to be… anchored… in reality. And yet not once you said “you’re right, bad source”. I did a few times?

          I could say the same of yourself. You constantly misread what I write, taking several comments to correct your misconception, and the same applies to sources I link.

          Oh, that’s no longer something I think is possible. Now I genuinely wonder if there’s a fact, or an argument, or smthing, that could make you change your wrong opinion that USSR occupation was good for Poland (against will of Polish worker class might I add, as proven by the multiple strikes - you also need to understand that the strikes were not necessarily against socialism system, but against being forced by USSR into subserviency)

          Strikes in Poland does not equate to an absolute desire to erase socialism in Poland. As Parenti said:

          During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them.

          You genuflect to orthodoxy.

          • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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            2 months ago

            Sure. Sure, I’m orthodox, and yet out of two of us I seem to be the only one willing to be convinced I might be wrong or missing information.

            Poverty skyrocketed after the dissolution of socialism.

            Like talking to a wall.

            Bankrupt country. Forced to repay old loans to be able to make new ones. The poverty rates skyrocketed for 5 years. Then it became lower than during most of USSR occupation.

            Go fucking grab a Polish source from the USSR occupied Poland.

            Fuck, I can name some for you, you just need to go to the damn library because I no longer have it at my home:

            • Warunki życia ludności w latach 1981-1985, Warszawa 1986

            And read fucking there the poverty rate in Poland by Polish standards in the 1980 were oscillating between 10 and 26% depending on the year in PPP.

            In 1989 it was about 15% IIRC (other source obviously).

            Now it’s been > 5% for ~two decades in the source you linked previously?

            During the Cold War, the anticommunist ideological framework

            Dude. That was outside USSR. We were inside. The sources from that era I cited were from inside the USSR.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              Sure. Sure, I’m orthodox, and yet out of two of us I seem to be the only one willing to be convinced I might be wrong or missing information.

              I’m willling to be convinced with compelling enough evidence.

              Like talking to a wall.

              Bankrupt country. Forced to repay old loans to be able to make new ones. The poverty rates skyrocketed for 5 years. Then it became lower than during most of USSR occupation.

              Go fucking grab a Polish source from the USSR occupied Poland.

              Poverty rates lowered as Poland integrated into the imperialists, and was heavily flooded with EU support to serve as a “shining example” of capitalism fixing socialism. Further, I did, Dorothy Douglas lived in Poland for a time during socialism.

              Dude. That was outside USSR. We were inside. The sources from that era I cited were from inside the USSR.

              You’re repeating the same dogma, though. Strikes are evidence of supporting overthrowing socialism, whereas if they hadn’t striked then you would say that was due to oppression. You proceed from “soviets bad” and twist everything to fit your narrative. I’ve spoken to Polish communists like @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml and have read enough on the subject to know that you aren’t painting a complete picture.

              • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                Why would you even call me into the thread full of reactionaries and especially the one debate pervert who is know for bad faith anticommunism ever since their nasty ass drifted here from reddit. 😩

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  2 months ago

                  That’s fairly creepy of you, is entirely conjecture, and they aren’t the only Polish communists I know. That’s a complete non-sequitor.

                  • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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                    2 months ago

                    And claiming you know Polish communists, and thus your arguments are valid is argumentum ad verecundiam (I also know latin :P)

                    And you sound like the USians who say “I have black friends”.

                • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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                  2 months ago

                  Brachu, brzmisz zupełnie jak pisowskie trolle na onecie, do tego twoje debatowe zboczenie osiągnęło ekstremalne wyżyny. Tym samym tokiem rozumowania ja bym mógł udowodnić że ty jesteś Polakiem, bo wszsytkie twoje siermiężne ipn-owskie wypociny brzmią zupełnie jak z najgorszych otchłani kucowskiego polskiego internetu. Poza tym po jakiemu ty kurwa chcesz żebym pisał w angielskim internecie? Na koncie które jest specjalnie utworzone do tego? Puknij się w czerep i to bardzo mocno jakimś tępym narzędziem, ulepszysz odrobinę świat.

                  Chociaż muszę przyznać że mnie odrobinę rozmieszyłeś opinią że żaden Polak nie zna ani trochę języka niemieckiego ani nie umie używać translatora.

                  • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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                    2 months ago

                    Przynajmniej nie pierdolę jakto fajnie było być pod zaborem ZSSR i umiem czytać statystyki biedy w Polsce z lat 70 i 80?

                    Jak tu trafiłeś? Wezwany na pomoc przez kolegę?

              • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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                2 months ago

                Further, I did, Dorothy Douglas lived in Poland for a time during socialism.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_W._Douglas

                This Dorothy Douglas? On whom there’s no information anywhere that she ever left the USA, yet lived in Poland?

                If the other people you talked to share your sources then you might’ve been catfished or in an echo chamber?

                  • ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip
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                    2 months ago

                    Interesting. I will try to look for anything corroborating that, because she was famously suspected to be a “Red” in the USA and she would’ve had her passport revoked.

                    And the only Western economist that officially was invited to Poland in 1948 was Oskar Lange.

                    Pugwash conferences started in 57.

                    To have access to any economic data she would have to be approved by the USSR in 1948 and then likely she would have to be on the exit visa list, on which she is not - in 1949 there are 3 Americans of which she is neither.

                    So if she were in Poland in 1948 or 1949 , with access to economic data, and left the USSR in 1949 she was better than Mata Hari. Good for her.

                  • Riverside@reddthat.com
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                    2 months ago

                    You may wanna stop trying to talk sense into ThirdConsul, they’re a Polish nationalist who threatened me with violence when I gave evidence that the USSR subsidized Polish industry after 1955.