Hey OP, I do think that this kind of agitprop is counter-intuitive. Like we discussed earlier, when trying to persuade liberals to your side, it is useful to highlight uncontestable reality. Simply showing a bunch of different ideological groups disagreeing with the PRC being Socialist without doing the legwork to show how and why the PRC is indeed Socialist and just calling them reactionary for disagreeing fuels them, rather than refutes.
Just my 2 cents. Your meme is “correct,” but requires a background in Marxism to appreciate, which is why it very easily backfires. Compared to how @yogthos@lemmy.ml posts, you can see the difference in effectiveness. I went and did all that legwork in replying to Prunebutt, so I don’t think it was a wash or anything, but you can see just how easy it was for Prunebutt to flip your meme against Marxists.
That’s easy to solve:
Are the workers in control of the means of production in China? Not as far as I know.
So, no: It’s not.
The PRC is Socialist. The PRC’s Public Sector covers a little over half of their overall economy, and the cooperative sector covers a little under a tenth. The Private Sector is under strict guidance of the government, in a birdcage model, where the CPC increases ownership as the markets themselves form monopolist syndicates that make themselves candidates for central planning. Further, the Public Sector is over key, heavy industried and infrastructure that drive the Private Sector, like the steel industry.
This is all in line with a Marxist understanding of Socialism, a Dictatorship of the Proletariat gradually wresting Capital from the hands of the Bourgeoisie as the Bourgeoisie must necessarily centralize Capital, making it much easier to centrally plan. Before these syndicates have formed, Markets are a more effective vector of growth in the Productive Forces, and as they stagnate Public Ownership and Central Planning becomes more efficient. From Engels:
Question 17 : Will it be possible to abolish private property at one stroke?
Answer : No, no more than the existing productive forces can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. Hence, the proletarian revolution, which in all probability is approaching, will be able gradually to transform existing society and abolish private property only when the necessary means of production have been created in sufficient quantity.
I highly recommend you read the article What is Socialism? The PRC isn’t Anarchist, but it is Socialist. You’re also welcome to read my introductory Marxism reading list.
Spare me with your idealist excuses.
Exactly which part was idealism? I specifically analyzed the materialist base of the PRC. Their economy isn’t fully publicly owned, correct, but if that was the requirement for Socialism then every single instance of Socialism would be Capitalist right up until the last bit of Capital is folded in, which is nonsense idealism. Socialism is a transitional state to Communism.
You clearly said “as far as I know,” then refuse to engage with actual analysis. What’s the point? To show that you both don’t know and are unwilling to speak with a Marxist?
What you consider socialist is basically the same as the alt right’s “socialism is when the government does stuff. If it does all the stuff, it’s communism”.
It’s idealistic, because you think a capitalist society is socialist, as long as their leadership claims they’re communist.
You’re far too much simping for Lenin. I don’t considersit fruitful to argue with such a devout Leninist in a meme community.
No, I consider Socialism to be a transitional state towards Communism. I don’t have to trust the CPC to recognize that over half of the economy is Publicly Owned and planned, and that the minority of the economy in the Private Sector depends heavily on the Public Sector and is shrinking as the CPC increases ownership and control over it as it centralizes, right in line with Engels.
Secondly, you claim my analysis is idealistic because I think “a Capitalist society is Socialist as long as the leadership claims to be communist.” Where? Where did I make that claim? All of my analysis depended on factual, observable reality, from the large and robust Public Sector to the increasing power over the Private Sector. Xi could claim to be a liberal and we would have to seriously doubt his intentions as the Public Sector is only growing and the government is slowly folding the Private into the Public! The fact that Xi has a doctorate in Marxism is irrelevant entirely to my analysis, though it certainly doesn’t hurt.
Furthermore, you failed to explain how the PRC is Capitalist! You leave your opinions open, unbacked, unverified, and unprotected as though they are common sense, when the evidence points to the contrary.
Finally, I don’t know what you mean by “simping for Lenin.” Lenin is one of the most important Marxists in history, and his work is invaluable to Marxism in the modern world. That doesn’t mean I “simp” for him. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I take Marxism seriously, and so far you’ve failed to demonstrate any actual understanding of Marxism.
I’m a Marxist-Leninist
That’s what I call “simping for Lenin”.
over half of the economy is Publicly Owned and planned
Who controls the public sector? The workers, or the CPC?
CPC increases ownership and control over it as it centralizes,
Ah, I see. That’s just state-capitalism.
so far you’ve failed to demonstrate any actual understanding of Marxism.
That’s because you’re conflating marxism with leninism. I don’t agree with Lenin, simple as that. I would claim that he misrepresented Marx, but I also don’t agree with Marx’s thesis of a societal trajectory beyond capitalism, either.
Secondly, you claim my analysis is idealistic because I think “a Capitalist society is Socialist as long as the leadership claims to be communist.”
You claim that China has a “dictatorship of the proletariat.” But the CPC are objectively not proletarian. They call themselves communist, but they lack the material conditions to be called proletarian. Their class is one of bureaucrats (which is underlined by Xi having a doctorate in marxism), which enact the exact same function of the bourgeoisie in capitalism. That’s why I call your excuses idealist. But I think you’re too ideologically committed to accept that.
Your whole point is that socialism is the transitionary state towards communism. That’s Lenin talking, not Marx.
So accepting Lenin’s contributions to Marxism is “simping?” You’re deeply unserious, there’s 0 chance you’ve actually engaged with Lenin via reading The State and Revolution, or Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism. Lenin’s analysis of Capitalism as it reaches the modern era is invaluable, which is why the vast majority of Marxists worldwide are Marxist-Leninists.
As for who controls the Public Sector, the answer is the Proletariat via a Dictatorship of the Proletariat. The CPC has nearly 100 million members, and the PRC has 8 other parties that work alongside the CPC in government. This is Marxism in action.
The idea that the CPC running the Public Sector is “State Capitalism” as you say means you truly have not read Marx. Marx always advocated for public ownership and central planning, a good article on this is Why Public Property? Or, if you’d prefer Engels, here’s an exerpt from Socialism: Utopian and Scientific:
The seizure of the means of production by society eliminates commodity production and with it the domination of the product over the producer. The anarchy within social production is replaced by consciously planned organization. The struggle for individual existence comes to an end. It is only at this point that man finally separates in a certain sense from the animal kingdom and that he passes from animal conditions of existence to really human ones.
Next, you get on to your beef with Lenin and Marx, without justifying either. You just say you “disagree.” The PRC doesn’t, and neither do I, so clearly it is on you to explain why the actions the PRC is taking go against Marxism and Marxism-Leninism. Additionally, you don’t at all justify why you believe Lenin “misrepresented Marx,” continuing your trend of asserting opinions and refusing to back any of them up in a manner that can be engaged with. Furthermore, with respect to me saying you don’t understand Marxism, I really meant Marxism. Lenin’s input had no clear relevance on that specific topic, you fundamentally failed to demonstrate an understanding the basics of Scientific Socialism (which you then go on to disagree with outright in denying Capitalism’s centralization paving the way for public owrship and planning a la Socialism).
Moving onward, you have an absurd claim that there is a “class” of bureaucrats. This goes against Marx’s understanding of class dynamics! You continue to make up new definitions that go beyond Marx’s analysis. Again, circling back to Engels, who along with Marx described a “planned economy” where the “government of persons” transitions to the “administration of things,” this was always meant to be a democratic government! Central Planning and Government Ownership are core to the Marxist conception of a Socialist society. The CPC represents the interests of the proletariat, and is largely made up of the proletariat. Again, 96 million members! You have demonstrated a lack of understanding of Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, and how the PRC functions. Moreover, you say the CPC being knowledgable about Marxism makes them a distinct class! This is idealism.
Finally, the idea that “socialism being transitional” to Communism came from Lenin is just semantics. Marx called it “lower stage Communism,” Lenin called it “Socialism.” If your issue is with me calling the transitional phase Socialism because Lenin used that term instead of Lower-Stage Communism, then I’m afraid I don’t see the point. Either way, as we already established earlier, markets cannot be abolished overnight, only by the degree to which they have centralized and developed. Following either word, the PRC is either Socialist or Lower-Stage Communist! Again, Engels:
Question 17 : Will it be possible to abolish private property at one stroke?
Answer : No, no more than the existing productive forces can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. Hence, the proletarian revolution, which in all probability is approaching, will be able gradually to transform existing society and abolish private property only when the necessary means of production have been created in sufficient quantity.
What’s your justification for ignoring every instance of Marx and Engels proving you wrong? You’re clearly anti-Marx, so why not just admit to being so and accept that the PRC is Marxist? You can disagree with their course while acknowledging that they are Socialist, in fact if you can make a good argument you can use that to explain why you think, say, Anarchism is better.
Yeah, I am deeply skeptical that maximum billionaires with no social services of any kind is the path to anything but lining Xi and his allies’ pockets. Sorry. Not buying it no matter how many Chinese AI bots post 8000 word articles about how actually socialized healthcare is a capitalist scheme to hold back the proletariat from space future communism you can’t understand without reading 700 of Marx’s lesser letters to random parties in Bavaria.
What do you mean by the PRC “maximizing billionaires?” The PRC regularly cracks down on their bourgeosie, and the majority of the economy is in the Public Sector, not the Private. What do you mean by “no social services of any kind?” Large infrastructure projects like massive public transit, a much better and more comprehensive public healthcare system than the US, an elimination of extreme poverty in the last decade, the PRC is focusing on the working class. Xi himself is far less rich than most world leaders, can you explain how the PRC is built to "enrich him and his allies?
Further, I have no idea what you mean by “socialized healthcare is a Capitalist scheme to hold the proletariat back.” Capitalist concessions do exist in Social Democracies, but they aren’t holding the Proletariat back, Bourgeois control of the state is.
Are you trying to say that a Socialist country needs to have 100% of the economy fully socialized to be considered Socialist? What do you call a system transitioning from one system to the next?
Finally, are you trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you is a “Chinese AI bot?”
I will give you that they do occasionally hang the odd executive, which I will give props for. I’d probably still be a dem if they had hung ONE executive in 2009. But if I don’t have cash in pocket, I’ll be left to die of treatable disease MORE on the streets of Beijing than NYC post-Obamacare. I’m not saying you need to be 100% there out of the gate, but telling me that I just need to eat shit for decades while not asking for better because it’s all some grand strategy I don’t get is why I’m no longer a dem. I’m not saying everyone with a different opinion is a bot but there do seem to be a LOT of people with nothing bad to say about China and a prewritten 5000 word statement defending them on every topic on here versus my expectations of the world at large, but maybe my expectations are off, I’ll give you that. I am open to the possibility that I’m just out of touch.
What on Earth are you talking about? The PRC eliminated extreme poverty, you absolutely would not be left to die on the street. You aren’t making any sense.
Okay, then why are Chinese savings rates so high relative to income if they’re well supported by the state for basic care like healthcare needs? Eliminating “extreme” poverty by being awesome at capitalism and maintaining French or worse levels of youth unemployment is the dream of Ronald Reagan, not Mao. Is the right to a job not a BASIC maxim of anything left of FDR, much less Mao?
Because prices are lower there and PPP is raising. There isn’t as much of a need to spend and instead they can save. They are “good at Capitalism” because they are using markets as a tool to develop and fold Private Property into the Public Sector as it develops.
Do I need to try to find the Marx quote about savings and how that’s an admission the state isn’t providing safety in a way that actually undermines markets? I will if I must, but I feel this has to be bad faith if you’re not already familiar with it in this context.
Nooo, those letters to the Sozialistischer Kegelklub, Straubing are vital! Without them you misunderstand Marxism!!! /s 😭😭😭
China is lead by a communist party, aimed at transitioning their nation into the first phases of socialism by 2050, right?
In that sense, they are indeed socialist, though practically they’re controlling their economy to go in that direction, so it does have captalism too, but that is not an issue as long as it is going well.
And they seem to be doing well on their goals of reducing poverty, pollution etc.
So yes, they are indeed socialist because their principles and aims are.
Though, I don’t think many folk are against that too. Mainly folk who are bombarded by stereotypical definitions of the left and socialism.
