I’ve been running a self-hosted Vaultwarden server with Bitwarden clients. It’s been perfect. The clients could use some usability work, but other than that, no complaints.
Just out of curiosity: is it wise to keep you MFA within your password safe? Like is that not the opposite of multi factor? I’m no troll, I’m seriously uninformed.
I suppose there is a certain level of risk but that’s true with any solution. Passwords generally don’t get changed very often and that’s usually what’s going to be nabbed up by somebody that in your username of course. With TOTP, putting that in bitwarden means that in order to get access to whatever account, they first have to get your credentials which they probably got from a dump filled with a bunch of other credentials, then I’d have to figure out that you’re using bitwarden was your be no sign that you are. Then they’d have to actually get into your bitwarden which if you’re doing it properly should be difficult. And if the login to bitwarden is completely different than the account are trying to get into it’s basically invisible to them.
The only way I see bitwarden being the weak link, is 1. Someone has physical access to your devices and they know what they’re looking for (in this case it’s probably a roommate or family or friend, someone that you trust but probably shouldn’t). 2. Bitwarden gets compromised (which is an impossible but it is probably more difficult because it is an open source thing). 3. You go to shady website and install shady stuff and that install some sort of keylogger, or something else that shows what your system has (hell, Microsoft recall would actually fall into this category) and a back actor sees that you have bitwarden and how you log into it. But that being said, 1 and 3 aren’t necessarily stopped by having a password manager solution and the separate MFA solution… But it could slow them down.
But physical MFA isn’t impervious either. I don’t recall if it was yubiki or Google’s Titan, if I remember back years ago one of them had a problem.
Not if you protect the master key with MFA, like a yubikey. Then it’s cryptographically secure for quite a while…at least until quantum computing is affordable enough to be used against your data. Or the database and your yubikey and yourbpassphrase are compromised
You’ve got a good point. I wonder if this an example of a trade-off between convenience and security. If you’re logging in and you get an MFA prompt, a Yubikey has to be physically searched, while Bitwarden or Proton Pass only have to be clicked. A Yubikey can only hold a limited amount of accounts, while Bitwarden or Proton Pass could hold many more. Of course, a Yubikey could be used as MFA for Bitwarden or Proton Pass, but that would create a single point of failure and reduce factor separation (which I think is your original point).
While I posted a Bitwarden or Proton Pass recommendation of sorts, I genuinely wonder if it’s advisable to not use MFA at all if the factors will not be separated. Or, perhaps, the best security solution is the one you’ll actually use. I guess the answer is the good ol’ “What’s your security model?”
I wonder if this an example of a trade-off between convenience and security.
I genuinely wonder if it’s advisable to not use MFA at all if the factors will not be separated. Or, perhaps, the best security solution is the one you’ll actually use
Your first and last statements are correct. Using your password manager as your MFA is a trade off with security and convenience, but that added convenience helps make it more usable so you actually use it. Anything is a trade up for most peoples’ awful password hygiene, so the trade off is worth it in my opinion.
Regarding the advisability of combining password and MFA into one platform: while you are lowering the overall security of your accounts, if you secure the main account with a long/strong password and a hardware security key, I would say that’s still more secure than not having 2FA enabled or not using secure passwords.
I like 1Password’s built in MFA support, if it’s a really sensitive account I use Google Authenticator because I haven’t bothered researching better local alternative
Edit: Going to try Aegis for the more sensitive logins, looks like what I’m looking for
Possibly not now that it saves your codes to your google account (it didn’t use to), but it made me uncomfortable for my password manager to have both factors together to log into something like my bank or root AWS account. So you’d have to compromise two different places to get in
I use this on my windows machines, offline , has biometrics, supports export and import from aegis. Is new and untested but past few months have been solid.
You can store the TOPT codes on them, but then you can also do all the higher security things too.
No one’s breaking into your Google account if you secure it with those keys and remove the sms backup method unless they’ve physically stolen the yubikey
KeePassXC does have this functionality on desktop as well as on SOME android apps (no idea for iOS). For android I like KeePass2Android Offline, iirc it was recommended on the official KeePassXC website (you may want to check it out).
Now that authy has fucked us over with this, what should I move my 2fa codes into, any recommendations?
Unfortunately I can’t use aegis on iOS/windows, does keepass have this functionality?
Bitwarden would be my vote
I’ve been running a self-hosted Vaultwarden server with Bitwarden clients. It’s been perfect. The clients could use some usability work, but other than that, no complaints.
Just out of curiosity: is it wise to keep you MFA within your password safe? Like is that not the opposite of multi factor? I’m no troll, I’m seriously uninformed.
Realistically the threat we care about is others leak your password. So it doesn’t matter.
If you have a setup where your password vault is at risk then yes it’s a bad idea.
I suppose there is a certain level of risk but that’s true with any solution. Passwords generally don’t get changed very often and that’s usually what’s going to be nabbed up by somebody that in your username of course. With TOTP, putting that in bitwarden means that in order to get access to whatever account, they first have to get your credentials which they probably got from a dump filled with a bunch of other credentials, then I’d have to figure out that you’re using bitwarden was your be no sign that you are. Then they’d have to actually get into your bitwarden which if you’re doing it properly should be difficult. And if the login to bitwarden is completely different than the account are trying to get into it’s basically invisible to them.
The only way I see bitwarden being the weak link, is 1. Someone has physical access to your devices and they know what they’re looking for (in this case it’s probably a roommate or family or friend, someone that you trust but probably shouldn’t). 2. Bitwarden gets compromised (which is an impossible but it is probably more difficult because it is an open source thing). 3. You go to shady website and install shady stuff and that install some sort of keylogger, or something else that shows what your system has (hell, Microsoft recall would actually fall into this category) and a back actor sees that you have bitwarden and how you log into it. But that being said, 1 and 3 aren’t necessarily stopped by having a password manager solution and the separate MFA solution… But it could slow them down.
But physical MFA isn’t impervious either. I don’t recall if it was yubiki or Google’s Titan, if I remember back years ago one of them had a problem.
This
Aegis
These are not local solutions, but are cross-platform and open source: Bitwarden or Proton Pass.
Doesn’t synced solutions completely defeat the purpose of MFA?
Not if you protect the master key with MFA, like a yubikey. Then it’s cryptographically secure for quite a while…at least until quantum computing is affordable enough to be used against your data. Or the database and your yubikey and yourbpassphrase are compromised
You’ve got a good point. I wonder if this an example of a trade-off between convenience and security. If you’re logging in and you get an MFA prompt, a Yubikey has to be physically searched, while Bitwarden or Proton Pass only have to be clicked. A Yubikey can only hold a limited amount of accounts, while Bitwarden or Proton Pass could hold many more. Of course, a Yubikey could be used as MFA for Bitwarden or Proton Pass, but that would create a single point of failure and reduce factor separation (which I think is your original point).
While I posted a Bitwarden or Proton Pass recommendation of sorts, I genuinely wonder if it’s advisable to not use MFA at all if the factors will not be separated. Or, perhaps, the best security solution is the one you’ll actually use. I guess the answer is the good ol’ “What’s your security model?”
Your first and last statements are correct. Using your password manager as your MFA is a trade off with security and convenience, but that added convenience helps make it more usable so you actually use it. Anything is a trade up for most peoples’ awful password hygiene, so the trade off is worth it in my opinion.
Regarding the advisability of combining password and MFA into one platform: while you are lowering the overall security of your accounts, if you secure the main account with a long/strong password and a hardware security key, I would say that’s still more secure than not having 2FA enabled or not using secure passwords.
Most decent password managers (e.g. 1Password, Proton Pass) have MFA built-in. Use those.
I like 1Password’s built in MFA support, if it’s a really sensitive account I use Google Authenticator because I haven’t bothered researching better local alternative
Edit: Going to try Aegis for the more sensitive logins, looks like what I’m looking for
You are not any more secure with google authenticator for 2fa, are you?
Possibly not now that it saves your codes to your google account (it didn’t use to), but it made me uncomfortable for my password manager to have both factors together to log into something like my bank or root AWS account. So you’d have to compromise two different places to get in
Most KeePass clones have it now, i use Keepass2Android plus KeePassX on PC
https://news.itsfoss.com/ente-auth/
I use this on my windows machines, offline , has biometrics, supports export and import from aegis. Is new and untested but past few months have been solid.
I’d recommend 2FAS Auth
Yup it’s pretty good, although I would’ve liked it better if they provided a good way to export the data to another app
Technically they export a json file (with a different extension). But you can move to another tool with this.
I’m using aegis, but maybe Proton Pass could be good?
It’s good
USB keys. Good luck getting one of those hacked.
To be more concrete: security keys can communicate over USB or NFC. Just make sure it supports the protocol you want to use it for.
But there is also passkeys which is both software- and hardware based and is almost equally secure.
Buy a few (at least 2 for a backup) yubikeys.
Much more secure.
You can store the TOPT codes on them, but then you can also do all the higher security things too.
No one’s breaking into your Google account if you secure it with those keys and remove the sms backup method unless they’ve physically stolen the yubikey
KeePassXC does have this functionality on desktop as well as on SOME android apps (no idea for iOS). For android I like KeePass2Android Offline, iirc it was recommended on the official KeePassXC website (you may want to check it out).
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