- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
Last week, I turned on my PC, installed a Windows update, and rebooted to find Microsoft Edge automatically open with the Chrome tabs I was working on before the update. I don’t use Microsoft Edge regularly, and I have Google Chrome set as my default browser. Bleary-eyed at 9AM, it took me a moment to realize that Microsoft Edge had simply taken over where I’d left off in Chrome. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
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And then uninstall Chrome and use FF instead.
Based.
And do this every time the system gets a major update because it puts all the crapware right back 🫣
Alternatively, buy or 🏴☠️KMSpico🏴☠️ yourself a pro license, and use group policy so it’s one and done. Microsoft has built in tools for almost all of this that don’t get rolled over by updates.
Getting tired of people claiming that it’s impossible to decrap Windows.
Obtuse? Sure! Features that shouldn’t be hidden behind an upgraded license? Hell fucking yes!
Impossible? Fuck no, hell no.
Learning basic Windows admin stuff, especially just the debloating/configuration things, is comparable in difficulty to switching to Linux.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Linux and less reliance on Microsoft is awesome, but 90% of complaints about Windows come from people who don’t know how to configure it, how to use the tools Microsoft offers to decrap it, and how to make it work for them. They’ll hit similar problems with most Linux distros as soon as you go deeper than basic “office suite and web browser” usage.
Most GPOs just set registry settings. So theoretically you don’t even need pro, just to set the right registry values and write-protect them
Well yes but GPOs overrule registry settings (if a user or the OS flips a registry setting, the GPO will switch it back on the next reboot).
you don’t need to write protect them, except options related to ms defender. (which can be removed as “malware” by the defender)
they won’t get reset.I dunno hey, for some reason an update caused edge to re-enable it’s BS homescreen spam content
you should use MAS instead of Pico
https://massgrave.dev
also, gpos are just templates for the registry, you can just look them up and apply manually (ehich is actually faster than finding anything in the official gpo editor), unless you’re a sysadmin and managing a whole fleet of machines (this is what gpo editor was actually made for) there’s no real need for it.No need for KMS Pico anymore. There are better tools out there.
Go on…
Install Gentoo
I’d prefer to stick with windows for gaming capabilities. Thanks though.
Oh no it’d just a silly joke. I was not being serious. You can game on Linux though
fuck gentoo, spending an entire week compiling shit is not something i want to do
I’d rather stick with arch or fedoraChill dude. It’s just a meme. I use Debian btw
As a gentoo user, I’m always confused when people think gentoo is about multi-day compiles. Rebuilding the whole system takes a few hours (not that I ever need to do that), and binary packages are available for the big stuff if you want it. It’s basically just arch with more configuration options.
Not insisting you or anyone should run it, but it’s not as ridiculous as people seem to think.
MAS Activation Script - HWID Activation
I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m just saying I shouldn’t have to decrap a piece of software I actually paid for. Over and over. Also, whenever they introduce some new crap it usually comes with new GPOs that also have to be enabled to remove it again. It’s like whack-a-mole.
Obtuse? Sure! Features that shouldn’t be hidden behind an upgraded license? Hell fucking yes!
This is what I was saying really. This crap should never have been there in the first place as it’s consumer-hostile.
Impossible? Fuck no, hell no.
I never said this :) I said it was annoying having to do it every time. Yeah I have pro. And I know what GPOs are. But really, you can’t expect an average consumer to do this. Also, it’s less work to just change things back manually every time than to figure all the GPOs needed. It’s really just super annoying that it happens in the first place. I expect software I buy to be made to help me, not work against me.
And I never mentioned Linux in my post even though I use it myself. I know this is not a suitable alternative for the majority.
if its comparable in difficulty, why not just switch to a system that does what you want on the first place?
If you’ve got a few windows machines on your network and some sysadmin skills, you can run a Zentyal server to set up the GPOs. Syncs across your machines, and you can add a new one at any time that will also get de-shittified instantly.
I think, my reason for switching stemmed from me getting bored if decrapifying windows and wanting to hsebsomething awesome to begin with
I’ve been a lifelong windows user (well and DOS and whatever cartridge I used with the C64/C128) but I think it’s just time to uninstall the OS instead.
I would love to ditch windows but Linux desktop just isn’t ready
bollocks
I have tried to switch my daily driver to linux for more than 15 years now, Linux desktop just isn’t ready.
Full disclosure: I am an IT admin with near 3 decades of experience, including administrating linux servers, so this isn’t a skill gap.
Weird, I switched my daily driver in December 2022 over to Mint (likewise I’ve been using Linux for various things since '08, so not a noob) and it’s been pretty damn solid since then, including upgrades from Mint 20 to 21 and all of the Mint 21 point releases.
Do you game often?
I admit that Mint is the distro I got the furthest with, several weeks in I just stopped being able to do full screen 3d. I spent a month and a half on forums trying to figure it out including 2 clean installs and couldn’t get anywhere.
I even did board level diagnostics on my video card.
Just gave up and went back to windows, never had an issue there and still don’t.
I’ll use linux for remote servers or fun little house gadgets, but as much as I hate windows, (and I hate windows with the seething glowing magma aged bitterness of someone who has had to support it since WIndows 3.11.
I would LOVE to ditch it, especially now, but until I can get a clean install to doing what I need to do in under a day, I can’t advocate linux.
Mint was the last one I tried and it was awful, really buggy and poor UX
I have tried to switch my daily driver to linux for more than 15 years now, Linux desktop just isn’t ready.
Something isn’t adding up here. I switched to mostly Linux around 2003. By 2005 it was all Linux unless I got paid for it. My wife has been only Linux since then and she doesn’t really know how to use a computer and doesn’t want to. Linux just works for her.
I do all my work from a Linux desktop and two Linux laptops. Well and a Steamdeck I use as a desktop when traveling. I remote into windows machines when I am using windows for jobs. Sometimes desktops, sometimes Azure virtual desktops, but my local client is always Linux.
I have an MSDN, I admin Azure instances, SQL servers, Windows Servers, and work on Windows desktops. Over the last two to three years it has been the windows machines that are the most annoying and troublesome. Linux is just easy and just works.
The Linux desktop is ready. Has been ready. Something is going on with your situation. Could be breaking old habits, could be hardware. I don’t know. But saying Linux is to blame here is ridiculous.
You think it’s impossible that Windows, an operating system with whole teams of people paid well to work on design and UX could be easier to use than Linux desktop which is primarily people working in their spare time?
Nearly identical story here, and I agree.
Habits and hardware are definitely the big ones to overcome. I still remember how absolutely lost I felt the first couple times I tried installing slackware in the 90s. I could install/set up windows in my sleep. But then slackware dropped to an unfamiliar command prompt, I can’t dir, there isn’t even a C drive, and now I’m expected to configure something called xfree86. Luckily I wasn’t told to use vi or I’d be stuck there to this day.
New users aren’t thrown into the deep end quite like that anymore, but it’s still a big change for a windows power user. So much of what you learned is not applicable or just the wrong way to do things. Mac users and Windows non-power-users seem to have a much easier time accepting the changes.
It’s definitely not for everyone (is any OS?) but it’s been ‘ready’ as a desktop OS for me since Mandrake 8 in ~2001. That’s about when I ditched windows 2000 and haven’t looked back.
That’s hilarious. I was a full time IT admin earlier in my career and still have run Linux full time for well over a decade now. For anything proprietary, i have a qemu image.
Of course, now I’m a DevOps admin so I get play with linux all day, for $$$! Hundreds of servers of all distros! Ubuntu, Cent, RHEL, Alpine containers… My big task this year is to get off Docker/Mesos and into OCI/Kubernettes. It’s going to be an incredible project.
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The amount of issues I had last time I tried says otherwise
Depends on your needs. For a lot of users, I think the current Linux desktop experience is sufficient. If you have more specific needs, I can see why you’d stick with Windows.
It looks ready to me. Just need to figure out equivalents in software, many which I’m sure are similar or better.
It’s not just that, I had unending problems when I tried last and most of the help I received online was incredibly combative (“you shouldn’t want to do that”) or just asking me to switch distro and start again, of course the distro recommended was different each time
Which distro did you try last time? Just for future reference.
I’ve installed Linux mint for a family member on a netbook back in 2008, and it worked splendid ootb. At least for surfing the web, watching streams and movies and playing Solitaire or something. But can’t expect too much from a netbook.
Mint. Had problems with device drivers, with things I used for my job not having proper software support. With having to edit config based on a dream and a whole lot of guesswork just to make some peripherals work. Being told that a config setting I use on windows need not exist on Linux because I can just buy different hardware…
I think gnome at least is there now
Not much you can’t do from a gui, it works pretty reliably
Most people myself included use commandline package managers though, so I’m not sure what state graphical interfaces on them are in right now
I’ve started using Ansible to apply windows settings and manage packages because of this. It’s a bit of work to setup the playbooks but I just run it occasionally on my windows hosts to keep Microsoft from reverting settings or reinstalling junk.
Just want to mention Floorp, based on FF but with loads of additional options & appearance settings, also lightning-fast.
it’s nice to see more gecko/firefox-based browsers
Partially because we need stable forks for if/when Mozilla bites the dirt.
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These are all great. I use Librewolf and Mull on the regular. That said, I doubt any of these would be able to take up the mantle that Mozilla holds. The amount of resources and manpower needed to maintain and produce a modern browser that isn’t a fork is immense.
Not to knock the devs who maintain these forks, but my guess is the majority of the work comes down to the devs at Mozilla. And if they fall, it’s likely these forks will as well, or at least will become an out of date mess.
Just want to mention Librewolf which is also FF based and has no telemetry out of the box, as well or ublock origin installed by default.
Librewolf is also a great choice, it was my go-to before Floorp.
this is borked in win11, and got borked in win10 a month ago.
my secondary win10 machine that had been edge-free for at least 4 years, just got edge back and since it was also disabled by policy, throws an error on every boot, since apparently that piece of crap tries to autostart for whatever reason (even if autostart option is disabled, it just starts in background, does something and closes a few minutes later)No. Install Linux and be done with the Microsoft bullshit forever
Doesnt seem to work for me this doesnt so anything on my pc
This behaviour is why I roll my eyes when the edge fanbois are all like “iTs AlL cHrOmE aNyWaY”.
Fuck any company that uses their power to try trick people into using their software, yes including google.
“iTs AlL cHrOmE aNyWaY”
This is why I use Firefox.
Firefox still needs to be compatible with the “living standard” as implemented in Chromium, it’s how the modern web works 🤷
What do you mean by ‘living standard’ ?
Google’s monopolistic and often asinine implementation of web standards that haven’t been fully set in stone by the proper internet oversight groups yet, I’d guess?
Check out the history of WHATWG vs W3C, you might get surprised by which side Mozilla is on, or where did the code for Chromium come from.
It means a standard that changes in a bottom-up way, usually defined by a reference implementation… instead of by organizing worldwide trips to have meetings, workgroups, and committees, who define whatever they pull out of thin air, then expect developers to implement by pointing to a multi-thousand page PDF that nobody knows if it’s possible to implement, much less in an efficient way.
Wait, Edge fanbois are real??
It’s crazy to me that Microsoft isn’t getting any legal pressure for doing this
This isn’t the first instance them of di**ing around. They have learnt over time that there is no consequence for such dirty behavior.
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And again, install Linux and be done with this shit. Fuck Windows, fuck everything about Microsoft, don’t use their crap
Having switched Linux for over two decades now, I find the current state of Windows to be extremely weird. Why do people tolerate such abuse? Is it that the gradual degradation conditioned people to accept it? Sort of like the proverbial frog in the boiling water?
People stick to what they are used to, and don’t notice the enshittification. Windows users will happily tell you that Windows “just works”, and that Linux is “too hard”, because that’s what they heard for years and never bothered trying for themselves.
Now, Linux overwhelmingly “just works”, and using Windows is a constant fight with the OS. Instead of the problem Linux used to have where everything assumed you understood Unix already and new how to make good user decisions, Windows assumes you’re a brainless moron and makes decisions for you without bothering to ask you or even tell you.
Even the fact that you have to install Linux scares people, because people are used to Windows coming on their computer, and in many cases don’t even realize that Windows and the computer they are running it on are totally different things.
I first tried Linux around two decades ago, and it felt clunky to me - so I didn’t stick with it. I tried again around one decade ago; and it was a lot better, but I still didn’t quite have enough reason to keep using it yet. … But now, finally, I tried again several months ago - and I’m definitely sticking with it. I’m currently using Mint.
There are still some thing that I think are worse in Mint compared to Windows. But there is a lot of stuff that’s much better. It’s more than enough that I don’t expect to ever switch back to Windows again. The main thing is avoiding all the anti-features of Windows, such as the constant nagging to switch to Edge or activate their search bar; and the ads & other cruft in the start menu; and the constant little popups and ‘reminders’ about new stuff; and the lack of control in when updates are installed; and the ubiquitous harvesting of personal information, including ‘telemetry’ of which apps you run and when.
For me, one of the last straws was when I clicked on a help link from Windows settings, and it automatically opened in Edge, and Edge then automatically imported my browsing history and bookmarks from Firefox and automatically uploaded it to my Microsoft account. I was horrified that it would do something like that without any interaction whatsoever. I didn’t even think Edge had access to my Microsoft account until then, because I deliberately avoid using one to sign in, or for any other reason - the only reason it exists is because I used OneNote. I wanted the account to be isolated to just the app I used it for; not to automatically be grabbed by the whole OS and then used to collect my browsing history.
So yeah. I’d spent years of maintaining an ever-growing list of little system tweaks that I used to keep as junk off Windows as possible. But I’ve had enough. It’s too much. It’s not even close to being worth it. Linux has some minor problems, and some things take a bit of getting use to. But at least it isn’t systematically hostile.
I made that jump two decades ago. My last straw was the fact that Windows was making numerous connections online without my permission or even knowledge. One thing I can tell you though - Microsoft makes sure that you don’t regret the decision to switch. I know that some problems in Linux can be frustrating - especially driver-related issues. But you eventually learn to solve them - a solution if often just a web search away. But the freedom you get in exchange is priceless. So, hang in there and your persistence will be rewarded.
Personally I still use Windows for gaming and some other programs that work better under Windows. I’ve tried to switch, but it was just a bit too unstable to depend on for me. For me none of this shit has happened tho. No forced Cortana, no sudden Candy Crush install, no Edge fucking with my browsing. I’d rather switch to Linux full time instead of dual booting, because M$ is still pulling all these moves on others, but sometimes convenience does win.
installed a Windows update, (…) and I have Google Chrome set as my default browser
It’s subtle but if you look closely and read between the lines you can see what the real issue is.
He doesn’t use Arch btw
I’m slowly just migrating away from windows as much as I can because Microsoft is being so pushy with this nonsense. Like, they keep trying to get me to log in to a Microsoft account that doesn’t exist, they keep changing settings and asking for more permissions, they keep reinstalling stuff I’ve ripped out purposefully, and from the way they’re talking it seems like it’s just going to get worse. Stuff like putting cloud run python functions in to Excel just sounds like they’re testing tech to push more and more functions off the device and in to their centralized processing centers.
I’d consider apple but I don’t have “spend 3x as much money on the same hardware” money TBH, and really I don’t have any guarantees they won’t do the same thing Microsoft is doing.
I’ve got an older laptop that I’m slowly rebuilding my work flow in mint Linux and once I’ve got that working I’ll set it up on my main computer and be done with windows for the foreseeable future.
If you’re looking for respect as a customer, there are better reasons to avoid Apple than “spend 3x as much money on the same hardware”. They might be better on privacy and user experience fronts. But they are extremely abusive on “squeeze the consumer”, " squeeze the developer" and “give no crap about environment” fronts. While the world’s richest company demanding 30% cut of developers’ revenue citing operations cost is greed on a supreme scale, the worst is how they package their products - unserviceable, irreparable, no spare parts available, spare parts not swappable, vendor locked-in and needing extremely costly accessories. They justify all of this in the name of privacy and miniaturization - which is technically an utter hogwash. And then there is the army of annoying Apple fanbois who go around repeating these lies.
they keep reinstalling stuff I’ve ripped out purposefully
You’ll find every OS does that, it’s called “installing dependencies”. Even on Gentoo, there is only so far that you can go removing stuff before it turns out they either get reinstalled anyway, or everything comes tumbling down.
putting cloud run python functions in to Excel
People seem to like their cloud run functions in Google Sheets, Jupyter books, Mathematica notebooks, and similar. Can’t blame MS for trying to catch up.
Edge, unlike Internet Explorer, is not a system level dependency. There is a separately installed web view that handles that now, likely due to EU consumer protections.
Edge is a dependency of the “Internet Explorer compatibility” system feature which comes enabled by default, while the Webview feature comes disabled by default.
Sneaky? Yeah… but it’s a dependency 🤷
It kind of still is because of Webview2. Games such as Forza Motorsport (not that you’d want to play that crap) depend on it for Xbox login purposes even if you bought the game on Steam. The game depends on the system Edge libraries and doesn’t ship its own.
Python2 might be required by something. Is Edge required? And Xbox? A folder for 3D models even if I never did 3D stuff and most likely never will on that PC? If yes, why? I can’t think of anything I or lots of other people need that wouldn’t work without these and lots of other things
Edge is, somewhat ironically, required by the “Internet Explorer compatibility” feature. Xbox and the 3D folder, get installed as part of a “user experience” pack. Not sure if Edge also gets pulled as a requirement to populate the “default app” fields. Interestingly, if you never open the Xbox app, it will never fully install, even if the package gets updated.
Why do I need IE compatibility? I use Firefox. Why is the XBox app in the start menu? This is a work PC. The 3D folder (and Videos, Music, etc) just takes space in the File Explorer. I’d be fine if it created it when I save a file there, but until then I don’t want to see it
Why do I need IE compatibility? I use Firefox
If you don’t need it, then disable the feature.
Why is the XBox app in the start menu?
For the same reason ther is a “Games” menu in most Linux distros. If you don’t need it, unpin it.
The 3D folder (and Videos, Music, etc) just takes space in the File Explorer
Same thing, if you don’t need them, unpin them.
I’d be fine if it created it when I save a file there, but until then I don’t want to see it
…how would you save a file there, if they didn’t exist to save your file there in the first place?
(BTW, I don’t have a “3D Folder” on Win 11 🤷)
ye but at least on linux the dependencies arent bundled with useless applications that u dont want, and u can mostly trust em cuz open source X3
If no one is actually auditing that code, or somehow confirming that the binaries shipped by your package manager match what the code compiles to, then you’re still playing a trust game.
Trusting in open source software devs rather than a capitalist corporation definitely makes sense, but it isn’t some panacea for “safe, nonspying software”.
Also, dependencies on linux absolutely include programs I don’t want. They just tend to be less obtrusive terminal programs and libraries rather than full blown UI based shit. Less visible, but far easier to sneak under the radar.
That’s why I use Gentoo. I don’t read the code, even just Firefox is absolutely bonkers, but being able to flag out parts of code just feels nice. I know it’s not absolute, but -telemetry gives me a nice warm feeling inside.
somehow confirming that the binaries shipped by your package manager match what the code compiles to
Indeed, that’s why: https://reproducible-builds.org/
Right now, Debian seems to be leading with over 95% of packages being reproducible.
is why the mostly trust :3 as always run code at ur own risk
and the utility programs thatr part of thhe dependencies r often there so its easier for devs to use depenancies, so they do sorta gotta be there !
Linux Mint is nice, but also check out Pop OS. :)
No one who enjoys the Internet should be using Chrome for anything.
I use it for gmail and related google apps, nothing else.
Honestly works for me. Chrome for emails and stuff. No history, full privacy mode firefox for everything else. That includes youtube and links in emails.
Google thinks all I ever do is check my emails.
*chuckles in Google*
Firefox is your friend.
LOL This is what happens when you run closed source garbage. Nothing is in your control.
I’m not a programmer. Open source garbage isn’t in my control either.
Edge also copies all the extensions you have in Chrome.
I use Edge as “that browser with full tracking and no privacy that government sites require”, so it still was a dick move… had to disable them all 😒
That’s hilarious. Why would you use chrome instead of edge though? At least with edge you cut out google, with chrome you give data to both.
I’m having trouble parsing this so i might be commenting on something that isn’t there.
Current edge is a chrome re-skin with some addons, I’d put good money on it not being google free.
If you care about data going to nefarious places you probably shouldn’t be using either.
If you’re using windows you’re already giving Microsoft data so may as well
Edge uses chromium not chrome, I would hazard a guess there’s much less data harvesting going on in base chromium given it’s open source and people can see exactly what they collect
If you’re using windows you’re already giving Microsoft data so may as well
While technically correct, to me this sounds like “You haven’t managed to stop some of the tracking, why not just give them everything?” which is personally not my approach.
Not to say that my approach isn’t effort and is even effective, but I’d much rather limit the damage in the ways i can rather than give up entirely. I can see why someone wouldn’t want to put in that kind of effort though and i don’t fault them for it.
Edge uses chromium not chrome, I would hazard a guess there’s much less data harvesting going on in base chromium given it’s open source and people can see exactly what they collect
Open source yes, but not necessarily free from data-harvesting.
The fact that un-googled chromium (and others like it) exist implies that straight up chromium being open source isn’t a guarantee they aren’t doing consumer-hostile shit anyway.
Though, yes, it’s almost certainly less than full-fat chrome.
I don’t think there’s any data Microsoft can get through you using edge that they can’t also get just by controlling your OS
Nothing at all stopping them from reading data from other browsers, as has been demonstrated by the whole stealing chrome tabs thing
There are valid reasons to use windows and if you’ve gotta use it anyway they’ve already got your data from the start
I don’t think there’s any data Microsoft can get through you using edge that they can’t also get just by controlling your OS
I’d put mid-level money on that not being true. There are a lot of things going on in a browser, a lot of which aren’t particularly easy to access from the outside.
Not to say it isn’t possible.
There are valid reasons to use windows and if you’ve gotta use it anyway they’ve already got your data from the start
To a degree yes, but assuming they aren’t pulling nefarious shit in the background, there are in theory many things you can turn off or somewhat neutralise using the options in the OS to reduce the level of data collection.
They are slowly removing those options but they still exist for now.
Again, i fully understand people not wanting to go to the trouble to achieve a goal they don’t care about, but that isn’t the same as there being nothing you can do if you wish to.
Not quite. Edge and Chrome are both Chromium-based browsers. There shouldn’t be any of the Googled parts of Chrome in Edge, just as there aren’t any Googled parts of Chrome in stock Chromium.
Of course, you are now giving your data to Microsoft instead of Google, which isn’t really a win or a lose. If you’re not paying for the software, you’re either using FOSS, or the software is paid for by selling access to you and your computer.
There shouldn’t be any of the Googled parts of Chrome in Edge, just as there aren’t any Googled parts of Chrome in stock Chromium.
There are at the very least googled parts of chromium in it though : https://github.com/ungoogled-software/ungoogled-chromium
Unless google have significantly changed the way they package and build chromium recently there are still google web service dependencies and i believe binary blobs (though they may have changed the closed source blob policy iirc)
Of course, you are now giving your data to Microsoft instead of Google, which isn’t really a win or a lose. If you’re not paying for the software, you’re either using FOSS, or the software is paid for by selling access to you and your computer.
Indeed
Everyone in this thread is complaining about Chrome. They should be complaining about MS.
Can’t we do both?
Chrome’s singular purpose of existence is to give Google an avenue to vacuum up user data - both directly and through corruption of the web standards. Edge doing this crap is merely like giving a pig a clown hat. Fuck em both.
It’s so easy to switch to Edge, you don’t even have to try! Literally!
Microsoft Edge is actually good, so I sure hope the team building it isn’t about to resort to more tricks to get Chrome users to use it.
Given Microsoft’s track record…
To be fair, chromium aside, edge did start as a nice browser, but as with all MS products, they end up getting riddled with more and more bullshit over time.
Just use Firefox.
Yeah and that didn’t take very long. I mean how long was it since they started pushing the “new” edge until the crapware started showing up? Only a year or 2 IIRC.
I mean normally the rule of enshittification is that you wait inserting all the crap after people have started adopting your product. They didn’t wait long enough. I always knew they would do it but at least I didn’t have to wait long to be proven right.
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Still relevant after 17+ years:
The only browser recommended by Microsoft.
Made by Microsoft
Partly made by microsoft :P They put all the coupon scam and buy now pay later scams in it.
Yeah, in true M$ fashion the hard part was done by other people.
Two ways to avoid this problem: switch to linux, switch to firefox, preferably both
Unless you’re stuck in corporate hell where either one of these things isn’t possible.
yea
Look at me! I am the browser now
Actually, I had this exact issue a year ago, had a rage fit, and bought a Mac. I hate Apple, but this was going way too far
I switched from Windows to Apple back in 2008…I have never regretted it.
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I’ve had iMacs and iPhones ONLY (no MacBooks) for 16 years with no problems.
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Exactly! Apple is just a different type of abuser. This is like saying “My previous spouse was very abusive. So I chose to marry another abusive person”.
Except a PC from 2008 can still run the latest windows 10 version without any real issues (an i7 940 from that time is roughly equivalent in perfomance to a brand new Celeron g5900) while a Mac from 2008 became e-waste years ago when Apple discontinued MacOS and workarounds become harder and harder with each yearly os update. And too many Mac developers target the latest MacOS versions so if you don’t update you can’t run latest apps.
“But you can run Linux on a Mac” yeah thanks to the proprietary shit, if I run Debian on my old iMac I get only a black screen (other distros are running ok though, not all of them are without issues)
