More important than opposition to the current system is the prefiguration of an anarchic one. So much online discourse is about attacking, a lot less is about building. I drew this to remind myself and others that confronting the state is only a part of the puzzle and building new systems without it is also important.

Licence (as always): CC-0, No rights reserved.

  • releaseTheTomatoes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    3 days ago

    Does this hypothetical society you propose use any industrially produced goods to maintain itself?

    ArIf so… do you imagine those industrially produced goods to be the result of a barter economy?

    No and no. Since I took food as an example I’ll use that because we all need food and it’s the most important product that needs to be addressed. The way we produce today industrially is 1) centralized, 2) profit-driven, and 3) heavily dependent on exploitative labor and fossil fuels. In contrast, the model I’m proposing would decentralize food production, it would be very emphatic on local autonomy, and be organized around mutual aid and shared responsibility rather than trade or barter.

    Instead of massive monoculture farms and supply chains thousands of miles long, food would be grown close to where people live - through networks of community gardens, small-scale permaculture farms, and cooperative distribution. The tools and materials needed, (yes, even some that are industrially produced) could be made in worker-run, federated workshops where production is democratically planned and prioritized based on need, not market demand.

    So no, it’s not barter. It’s not trade. The example that I tried to give was not fully “you give me X, I give you Y.” (I know, I did a shit job of explaining it) It’s a gift-based, need-based economy rooted in reciprocity (what we already see in disaster response and indigenous food sovereignty projects). It’s about building systems where everyone has access to what they need without having to earn it or bargain for it.

    • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 days ago

      Since I took food as an example I’ll use that because we all need food

      True, but food is also the easiest one. Food sovereignty is not the only kind of sovereignty an anarchist society would require in order to be viable. There is also energy sovereignty, mineral resource sovereignty, technological sovereignity and more - and I rarely see anarchists engaging with those… perhaps because they are not as easily dealt with as food sovereignty.

      Instead of massive monoculture farms

      Monoculture farming has more to do with colonialism than profiteering - the latter is merely the method preferred by imperialist and sub-imperialist states to ensure the accrued power and privilege resulting from it stays with those land-owning elites who support the status quo. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with monoculture - certain things will simply be better cultivated that way, even in a decolonised society. Democratised food systems would be nice, though.

      supply chains thousands of miles long

      This is unavoidable if you intend on having any kind of industrialised society. You can’t expect an anarchist farming community to also build and design it’s own agricultural machinery - and that doesn’t even take into account the raw materials needed for production.

      food would be grown close to where people live

      This would make trade inevitable. Not all crops can be grown everywhere - and that means people will inevitably start trading for the things that aren’t locally available to them. That is, unless you violently prevent them from doing so - but doing that also means your revolution has already failed.

      Let’s be clear - this…

      through networks of community gardens, small-scale permaculture farms, and cooperative distribution.

      …does not food sovereignty make. When it comes to food production, an anarchist society is going to need far, far more sophisticated and better-supported food production infrastructure than what you are imagining.

      The tools and materials needed, (yes, even some that are industrially produced) could be made in worker-run, federated workshops

      I have no interest in a society where the height of technology is only the machinery necessary to produce a spade. In order to be viable, an anarchist society won’t just need workshops - it will require factories and large-scale industrial complexes, supported by well-established (and extremely large) scientific and technological institutions. Only a relatively small amount of all of this can happen in a localised matter - even in a fully-democratised and socialised society (which is what an anarchist society would have to be).

      I know, I did a shit job of explaining it

      You did a shit job of explaining it because you don’t understand it well enough - just like Einstein famously said. I would go further than that - I’d also say you also don’t understand the world in which this proposed economic system would function well enough.

      You know, there was this absolute doomer - Mark Fisher - who opined that imagining the end of the world was easier than imagining the end of capitalism. I disagree - imagining the end of capitalism is not so hard… as long as you stop obsessing over replacing capitalism and begin understanding that a post-capitalist society will, instead, be built on top of a capitalist society. Ie, a historical process that actually has precedent.

        • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 day ago

          I remember reading through this all more than a decade ago… I had my quibbles with it back then, but in general there’s a lot of good stuff in there.

          Now… take a look at all the anarchist “influencers” on youtube, or just the generalised discourse you see in anarchist online spaces - and tell me if you see the disconnect.

          • Val@lemm.eeOP
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            1 day ago

            neither the youtubers nor us online anarchist can provide a solution to this problem. To solve this problem you need people with experience of heavy industry alongside environmental experts to coordinate using self-managed principles. A bunch of propagandists (which is what we are) do not have enough understanding to create and maintain these processes. Our job is to get people to collectivize and start thinking critically of authority so they would be empowered to create an environment where they can do everything they already do without someone constantly looking over their shoulders.

            Essentially: Leave the job of figuring out how to do things to the people. Or as AFAQ put: Is there a blueprint for anarchist society? https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionI.html#seci2

            • Val@lemm.eeOP
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              1 day ago

              I also saw your comment earlier in the thread that was on the same topic:

              Knowing what something mustn’t be is not nearly enough - one must know what something must be in order to build it.

              When talking about anarchy the only thing we can talk about is what it mustn’t be. Because “what it is” is something that only be answered during the process after all of the different voices come together to build something. Or to use a quote from that AFAQ paragraph: “revolution should not only be made for the people’s sake; it should also be made by the people.” [No Gods, No Masters, vol. 1, p. 141]

              As anarchists we cannot build anything individually. Only after we have collectively come together and figured out how to work together can we look back and describe what we have made. When we say “organize” we don’t have anything specific in mind because that would go against the ethos of self-determination. No anarchist worthy of the name should have a concrete idea of what anarchy looks like. Sure you can have approximations and speculation but you cannot say with certainty what it is your building because that would require you to be able to read the minds of everyone contributing.

              • masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                20 hours ago

                neither the youtubers nor us online anarchist can provide a solution to this problem.

                That’s a grand old way of saying that anarchists should only be comfortable and content with being edgy propagandists.

                To solve this problem you need people with experience of heavy industry alongside environmental experts to coordinate using self-managed principles.

                So where are they, then? Where are these discussions taking place? Where is the theoretical discourse that makes preconfiguration an actual possibility happening?

                Do you know of any?

                Our job is to get people to collectivize

                You are not going to get the working class collectivised with nothing but empty propaganda. The working class isn’t dumb, you know… they will always side with that which is more concrete - you know, that very thing anarchists seem afraid to offer?

                Leave the job of figuring out how to do things to the people.

                Are you not of “the people?” It seems to me that leaving all the really difficult stuff to “the people” has almost become an orthodox holy cow for anarchists these days… that must be why they assume screaming “organize!” at everybody will someday (somehow) magically raise anarchism from out of the political leper colony it presently finds itself in.

                When talking about anarchy the only thing we can talk about is what it mustn’t be.

                And why is that?

                all of the different voices come together to build something.

                Oh, certain voices are coming together, all right… but the anarchist one doesn’t seem to be in the room where it’s happening, does it now?

                As anarchists we cannot build anything individually.

                Nobody is saying that they should.

                When we say “organize” we don’t have anything specific in mind

                Yes. I know. That’s why it isn’t working.

                No anarchist worthy of the name should have a concrete idea of what anarchy looks like.

                Says who? Some Beardy McDeadguy, perhaps?

                Sure you can have approximations and speculation

                Ie, an actual theoretical grounding? There are only so many ways in which you can build a building, you know - it doesn’t hurt to actually know that BEFORE you are forced into building it under the most exacting of conditions.

                • Val@lemm.eeOP
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                  9 hours ago

                  An anarchist society isn’t a building. It’s a tree. A living, breathing, perpetually growing organism. You cannot say what a tree will look like before it’s grown. You can only plant a seed and hope for the best. As soon as you start planning and designing parts of this society you start ignoring other peoples contribution, stifling their liberty and self-determination. State socialists are the ones who are designing society according to their own vision and we’ve all seen where that leads.

                  If you want an actual movement and momentum check what the IWW is doing. They claim to be anarchist/syndicalists but I don’t know how much we are represented in the actual ranks. I’m sadly in a country that doesn’t have a branch.

                  Are you not of “the people?”

                  I am just one. I am limited by my skills and specialties. I cannot really contribute to the discussion of heavy industry or agriculture, unless it’s about using tech and computers to simplify or automate, but even then I would need to listen to the actual people in these industries to even begin designing something that works. I know IT, I know Computers, I know programming. I also think I’m relatively good at recourse management and coming up with solutions that others might not. Those are the areas I know I can contribute. I would love to start a tech-collective but I don’t have the contacts. That’s why I spend most of my time on here, it feels like the only place I can actually contribute. If a person actually has enough anarchists around them to actually do something they obviously should do something more than just spread propaganda, but I don’t.

                  they will always side with that which is more concrete

                  Which is part of the problem. Anarchy cannot be concrete. It’s chaos compared to centralized power structures, a free society cannot be anything else. The difference between anarchists and statists is that we embrace the chaos and believe something incredible can exist within it, that collectively we can withstand anything bad that chaos throws at us. Any concrete societal structure can only be maintained with control. This control will often result in inequality and exploitation.